Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Apr 29, 2018, 5:36 am
#541
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: AA Executive Platinum; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,662
I agree. I was going by The Points Guy's chart. I could have a helluva time with 500k miles.
Apr 29, 2018, 5:42 am
#542
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
Ashill's post #23 has some real meat to it. If the OP wants to get his miles back he will follow the recommendations outlined. If he just wanted to vent he becomes yet another one-and-done FlyerTalk poster. Yes, this is a jaded crowd - but also a pretty well informed one.
Apr 29, 2018, 11:09 am
#544
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PHL
Programs: HH Lifetime Diamond, AA EXP, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 583
Ashill's post #23 has some real meat to it. If the OP wants to get his miles back he will follow the recommendations outlined. If he just wanted to vent he becomes yet another one-and-done FlyerTalk poster. Yes, this is a jaded crowd - but also a pretty well informed one.
Apr 29, 2018, 11:38 am
#545
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,311
Apr 29, 2018, 3:14 pm
#547
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,212
Apr 29, 2018, 9:12 pm
#548
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
I like that question. Giving that information will help us help you. We're a suspicious but helpful lot when people are being straight up. And some of us have received letters asking for information and been cleared. If the first communication you had was notifying you of the forfeiture, that seems unusual based on experiences of others.
Even if this is a dead end for you, if you can be straight up with us, we can provide advice that, even if not helpful to you, might be helpful to others.
Apr 29, 2018, 9:23 pm
#549
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
1. As noted AA does not do this without some type of evidence of wrongdoing. Your guess about expelling "non-targeted customers" is incorrect.
You need to really think about why AA would suspect you of doing or attempting to do something wrong. Or, it is possible someone you had arranged award flights for has been involved in the buying and selling of miles. (Bartering is included in buying/selling)
2. You are free to take legal action, however, I suspect that might be a waste of money.
You need to really think about why AA would suspect you of doing or attempting to do something wrong. Or, it is possible someone you had arranged award flights for has been involved in the buying and selling of miles. (Bartering is included in buying/selling)
2. You are free to take legal action, however, I suspect that might be a waste of money.
Apr 30, 2018, 1:18 am
#550
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
Well, AA's email to the OP said "your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXX has been involved in the attempted online sale or barter of AAdvantage mileage", so I think the OP is denying what AA accused them of.
papayasalad, if you genuinely want help with this, talk to @JonNYC, by far the most knowledgable person on these forums about this kind of issue. My understanding of the advice is to immediately, fully, and truthfully answer every question AA asks with any documentation you can get. My understanding is that if you are indeed innocent and do that, you'll get the miles back. (But the fact that you're well past the "immediately" bit may be a problem; I don't know. It may also make you seem more like an innocent victim rather than someone who treats their miles like a business.)
This isn't a court of law; you're not innocent until proven guilty but instead have been found guilty by AA (based in every one of the many cases that have been reported here on substantial evidence) and now must prove your innocence. But if you're innocent, it probably can be done.
If you want further help, do you have any idea what activity AA might be suspicious of and what actually happened? Eg did you buy a bunch of award tickets from Asia to North America for people with different last names and addresses but they were all related to you or actual friends?
Many of us here are fairly suspicious of posts like this based on experience. It's quite common (happens every month or two) that someone comes to the FlyerTalk AA forum, posts a story not very different than yours, and it turns out that they in fact were guilty of precisely what AA said they were guilty of. So we don't tend to be overflowing with benefit of the doubt. I think most of us hope each thread is in fact started by an innocent victim; I certainly do.
papayasalad, if you genuinely want help with this, talk to @JonNYC, by far the most knowledgable person on these forums about this kind of issue. My understanding of the advice is to immediately, fully, and truthfully answer every question AA asks with any documentation you can get. My understanding is that if you are indeed innocent and do that, you'll get the miles back. (But the fact that you're well past the "immediately" bit may be a problem; I don't know. It may also make you seem more like an innocent victim rather than someone who treats their miles like a business.)
This isn't a court of law; you're not innocent until proven guilty but instead have been found guilty by AA (based in every one of the many cases that have been reported here on substantial evidence) and now must prove your innocence. But if you're innocent, it probably can be done.
If you want further help, do you have any idea what activity AA might be suspicious of and what actually happened? Eg did you buy a bunch of award tickets from Asia to North America for people with different last names and addresses but they were all related to you or actual friends?
Many of us here are fairly suspicious of posts like this based on experience. It's quite common (happens every month or two) that someone comes to the FlyerTalk AA forum, posts a story not very different than yours, and it turns out that they in fact were guilty of precisely what AA said they were guilty of. So we don't tend to be overflowing with benefit of the doubt. I think most of us hope each thread is in fact started by an innocent victim; I certainly do.
Hi ashill,
Thanks for your kind reply, and your full trust and understanding in me in this case. I highly appreciate it and am really grateful for it.
It might seem unbelievable to most of the people why I simply gave up on the 500,000 miles if I was truly innocent. But I think I made the right choice and am glad I did that. I prioritized things that were most important to me, and in return, the rewards I got in the past year are more than 10x of the value of the miles even if I were able to get them back.
It also seems weird to some people why I made the post in the first place if AA miles are useless to me now. Beside to bring some awareness to the community (and it seems people here are more than well informed, which surprised me quite a lot), I am somewhat seeking for a closure. Although I put this thing aside a year ago rationally, and also I fully understand the value of 500,000 AA miles is marginal even if I could get them back, but I still feel like I need to give it one last shot to fully let it go. Thanks for providing extremely helpful info in your post. I will follow up with AA and probably @JonNYC.
To answer some of your questions:
1) AA never asked me to provide any information in our communication. Thanks for @JDiver providing a sample questionnaire from AA in his reply, but that didn't happen in my case.
2) The link AA provided was a link to an online exchange market for people to buy and sell airline and hotel points. I traded more than 10 times in the past 7 years, including a number of airline and hotel programs, but AA miles was never on the list because I heard of AA's reputation of tracking this kind of activities.
3) My family stayed on the east coast for 7 years until last year. All the redemptions of my AA miles were for the 110k business class round-trip non-stop flight between U.S and Asia (CX and JL) for my wife and in-laws. I never redeem award tickets for people outside my family. In addition, all my AA miles are from US Airways, and churning 10+ Citi and Barclays credit card. Now that I moved to the west coast, it is extremely hard to use any of the AA miles in the foreseen near future.
Again, thanks a million for your help and your understanding. I will contact AA one last time per your advice, and see how it goes. Best wishes.
Last edited by papayasalad; Apr 30, 2018 at 1:31 am
Apr 30, 2018, 6:43 am
#551
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
Just admit what you did to AA and maybe, just maybe they will take some lenience on you
Last edited by CDKing; Apr 30, 2018 at 6:49 am
Apr 30, 2018, 8:35 am
#552
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,438
Hi ashill,
2) The link AA provided was a link to an online exchange market for people to buy and sell airline and hotel points. I traded more than 10 times in the past 7 years, including a number of airline and hotel programs, but AA miles was never on the list because I heard of AA's reputation of tracking this kind of activities.
2) The link AA provided was a link to an online exchange market for people to buy and sell airline and hotel points. I traded more than 10 times in the past 7 years, including a number of airline and hotel programs, but AA miles was never on the list because I heard of AA's reputation of tracking this kind of activities.
Apr 30, 2018, 8:56 am
#554
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 805
Here's my rundown:
- OP sold Non-AA points online
- OP also booked family members with AA points
- AA found OPs point selling account
- AA found tickets with someone other than OP's name on award tickets
- AA removes 500k points since they assume he sold AA points
Apr 30, 2018, 9:42 am
#555
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,372
If what the OP says is true, that his AA miles were never sold or bartered, is the bartering of other miles/points sufficient evidence for AA to take action under its own terms and conditions? Is the bartering or sale of other programs' miles or points explicitly against the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions? Is determining that there is a high probability of violation enough for AA to take action? It's not a legal standard, of course, but just curious.
OP, are you 100% sure that you never, ever, ever, ever, so much as offered to sell, or talked about offering to sell, your AA miles, even if no transactions actually took place?
OP, are you 100% sure that you never, ever, ever, ever, so much as offered to sell, or talked about offering to sell, your AA miles, even if no transactions actually took place?
