Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Apr 28, 2018, 3:30 pm
#526
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,314
You lost half a million miles a year ago and let it go because you were too busy? Although you claim you're innocent?
And you claim that AA said if you don't drop it we'll take the rest, too? Where's the letter with wording that says that? cuz it's not in what you posted as the only email you got from them.
What they DID say was they would close your account if they catch you again
And you claim that AA said if you don't drop it we'll take the rest, too? Where's the letter with wording that says that? cuz it's not in what you posted as the only email you got from them.
What they DID say was they would close your account if they catch you again
Apr 28, 2018, 3:38 pm
#527
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
Posts: 812
You lost half a million miles a year ago and let it go because you were too busy? Although you claim you're innocent?
And you claim that AA said if you don't drop it we'll take the rest, too? Where's the letter with wording that says that? cuz it's not in what you posted as the only email you got from them.
What they DID say was they would close your account if they catch you again
And you claim that AA said if you don't drop it we'll take the rest, too? Where's the letter with wording that says that? cuz it's not in what you posted as the only email you got from them.
What they DID say was they would close your account if they catch you again
Apr 28, 2018, 3:41 pm
#528
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
I am saying AA made a mistake and there is no way for me to appeal. That's why I gave up and stopped wasting my time back then. What I would like to understand is whether there is a way to appeal the case as the entire thing is extremely not transparent to me.
And yes, you are right on the closing account thing, what they meant was they would close my account if they "thought" they caught me again
And yes, you are right on the closing account thing, what they meant was they would close my account if they "thought" they caught me again
Apr 28, 2018, 3:42 pm
#529
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
Apr 28, 2018, 3:45 pm
#530
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
Posts: 812
I am saying AA made a mistake and there is no way for me to appeal. That's why I gave up and stopped wasting my time back then. What I would like to understand is whether there is a way to appeal the case as the entire thing is extremely not transparent to me.
And yes, you are right on the closing account thing, what they meant was they would close my account if they "thought" they caught me again
And yes, you are right on the closing account thing, what they meant was they would close my account if they "thought" they caught me again
Hire a lawyer. I think most of us are under the impression AA doesn't just randomly pluck miles out of accounts unless they have strong evidence. Opening themselves up to this kind of legal exposure would be bad PR, be bad for business, and open expose them to class action suites. You're story may be completely credible. It just seems like you aren't presenting a very good argument in your defense.
Apr 28, 2018, 3:49 pm
#531
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
Posts: 812
Of course they are useless now: they aren't yours anymore. How you could not uses 500k miles is beyond me. Trying to get back 500k in miles that are useless to you seems an even sillier story than how you supposedly lost them to begin with.
Last edited by Uncle Nonny; Apr 28, 2018 at 4:21 pm
Apr 28, 2018, 5:41 pm
#533
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
1. We don't need the "broken" link. But we do need to know if it was from gmail or ebay or a private server run by you or your "friendly local travel agent" located in another country, etc.
2. Pretend you are mad at yourself, and then tell us the most slanted version, AGAINST YOU, what AA could have "misunderstood." (A friend? A relative? An offer to barter, even though you never actually did it, but you did advertise it?)
3. MOST IMPORTANT - Did you get an email at any time in which AA asked you to tell them the facts? Did you respond absolutely completely and with every applicable fact? Or did you respond saying "I really don't know why you need this information"?
Thank you.
Last edited by sbrower; Apr 28, 2018 at 11:13 pm
Apr 28, 2018, 8:20 pm
#534
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,235
Apr 28, 2018, 8:24 pm
#535
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
Posts: 812
I agree. I was going by The Points Guy's chart. I could have a helluva time with 500k miles.
Apr 28, 2018, 8:36 pm
#536
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
You apparently had at least one if nor more rounds of communication with AA. Did you ask the Analyst to simply resend the link? That would seem to be the simple starting point.
You may, of course, consult a lawyer. But, as you will find, the miles belong to AA and there is not much for a lawyer to tell you.
The notion that AA used some unsubstantiated reason to dock you 500K miles is plain silly. There are a lot of people here with a whole lot more who use those miles for all manner of legitimate transfers and nothing happens to them.
Those who suggest that AA will back down over "bad PR" don't get it. Part of this anti-fraud effort is to deter others from fraud. It won't bother AA one bit if you spread you story far and wide.
You may, of course, consult a lawyer. But, as you will find, the miles belong to AA and there is not much for a lawyer to tell you.
The notion that AA used some unsubstantiated reason to dock you 500K miles is plain silly. There are a lot of people here with a whole lot more who use those miles for all manner of legitimate transfers and nothing happens to them.
Those who suggest that AA will back down over "bad PR" don't get it. Part of this anti-fraud effort is to deter others from fraud. It won't bother AA one bit if you spread you story far and wide.
Apr 28, 2018, 8:54 pm
#537
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,631
Of course, that could mean that he/she attempted a non-online sale, and/or that someone else attempted an online sale on his/her behalf.
It would also be mildly interesting to see the broken link and determine if it is a link that the OP or others could NOT have broken after the fact.
Apr 28, 2018, 11:09 pm
#539
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS, VA, WS Silver
Posts: 5,950
papayasalad, if you genuinely want help with this, talk to @JonNYC, by far the most knowledgable person on these forums about this kind of issue. My understanding of the advice is to immediately, fully, and truthfully answer every question AA asks with any documentation you can get. My understanding is that if you are indeed innocent and do that, you'll get the miles back. (But the fact that you're well past the "immediately" bit may be a problem; I don't know. It may also make you seem more like an innocent victim rather than someone who treats their miles like a business.)
This isn't a court of law; you're not innocent until proven guilty but instead have been found guilty by AA (based in every one of the many cases that have been reported here on substantial evidence) and now must prove your innocence. But if you're innocent, it probably can be done.
If you want further help, do you have any idea what activity AA might be suspicious of and what actually happened? Eg did you buy a bunch of award tickets from Asia to North America for people with different last names and addresses but they were all related to you or actual friends?
Many of us here are fairly suspicious of posts like this based on experience. It's quite common (happens every month or two) that someone comes to the FlyerTalk AA forum, posts a story not very different than yours, and it turns out that they in fact were guilty of precisely what AA said they were guilty of. So we don't tend to be overflowing with benefit of the doubt. I think most of us hope each thread is in fact started by an innocent victim; I certainly do.