Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AAs eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase ones chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AAs eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase ones chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, Im writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com in conjunction with your account and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, its not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com in conjunction with your account and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:
- Passenger name
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles
- Purchaser contact information, such as:
- Mailing address
- Email address
- Telephone number
- Website profile name
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above
- Website profile name
- Telephone number
- Email address
- Mailing address
- Purchaser contact information, such as:
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, its not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they come clean and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to plea bargain with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
#91
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
A friend/girlfriend of mine gifted a SWU upgrade that was expiring soon. It turns out she tried to sell one on ebay (not me), and myself and one other person she gifted them to got accused of purchasing them, and were expected to give details that fit that narrative.
Last edited by Microwave; Feb 21, 2017 at 11:53 pm Reason: Removed reference to moderation
#92
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Southern Cali
Programs: AA ExPlat, Marriott Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 2,018
It may have been deleted/edited.
A friend/girlfriend of mine gifted a SWU upgrade that was expiring soon. It turns out she tried to sell one on ebay (not me), and myself and one other person she gifted them to got accused of purchasing them, and were expected to give details that fit that narrative.
A friend/girlfriend of mine gifted a SWU upgrade that was expiring soon. It turns out she tried to sell one on ebay (not me), and myself and one other person she gifted them to got accused of purchasing them, and were expected to give details that fit that narrative.
Last edited by Microwave; Feb 21, 2017 at 11:54 pm Reason: Updated quote of edited post
#93
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
Snowycali, you should also be aware that AA Security may well read this forum. AA certainly knows about FT. Your verbatim reproduction of your unusual correspondence with AA certainly makes it easy for AA to identify you. Add to it a public statement that you might just try to solve the problem by lying, and I suggest that it might be time to consider taking your business elsewhere. You're not going to get anywhere with AA, IMO. At least you can get a fresh start with another carrier.
My statement is very clear, I have told them how i came about the SWU that I used, and have truthfully stated to them that i came about it well within the AAdvantage regulations. Their agent has responded with what looks like automatically generated form emails. It appears that anything i say other then what reinforces what they are accusing me of is being ignored.
This is like a medieval inquisition. If you are innocent, you can confess to the charges and be punished has a heretic with their forgiveness, or you can assert your innocence and be punished as a heretic all the same.
So i should have just listened to JonNYC and the others on here.
If they wanted me to say I bought the SWU, it would be better to lie and keep my account. If anything i hope that helps anyone else thats getting shafted like this in the future.
And for the destinations i fly to, Southwest is my only other option. All the airline mergers have seen to that.
Last edited by Snowycali; Feb 21, 2017 at 9:41 pm
#94
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
Platinum, and maybe not as many miles as most others on here, but it was a good amount. What pisses me off so much is that they have not even stated what i have done wrong. I can assume what their claim is from all that has gone on.
Last edited by Snowycali; Feb 21, 2017 at 9:30 pm
#95
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
#96
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
I should have made the next sentence on a new line to show it wasnt from you. I am saying that if you are accused of this, even wrongfully, just feed them the information they want to hear, even if its not true, as in corporate securities eyes, you are already guilty and you must confess all to be forgiven. If there is a mistake in their investigation, you denying what they are accusing you of is not going to help.
#97
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
I should have made the next sentence on a new line to show it wasnt from you. I am saying that if you are accused of this, even wrongfully, just feed them the information they want to hear, even if its not true, as in corporate securities eyes, you are already guilty and you must confess all to be forgiven.
#99
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,975
Well, now I am sure AA will more than willing to help you out.
Last edited by Microwave; Feb 21, 2017 at 11:56 pm Reason: Edited quote of and reply to deleted content
#101
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
Took me about 30 seconds to find this. You can find others yourself.
Result is that he lost about 100k in miles an several SWU, that i dont have. Roughly the equivalent of what was sold. That account does not concern someone who was accused of being involved in a sale by association.
Last edited by Microwave; Feb 21, 2017 at 11:57 pm Reason: Removed unwelcoming content
#102
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sun Prairie, WI
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, HH Diamond, National Executive
Posts: 1,786
I should have made the next sentence on a new line to show it wasnt from you. I am saying that if you are accused of this, even wrongfully, just feed them the information they want to hear, even if its not true, as in corporate securities eyes, you are already guilty and you must confess all to be forgiven. If there is a mistake in their investigation, you denying what they are accusing you of is not going to help.
#103
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
Of course it applies (as do others in this thread where people have told the truth and been exonerated), but you're clearly determined to twist your story around to fit your victimization narrative.
You tried to defraud AAdvantage, you got caught, and now you're angry about it and fishing for a get-out-of-jail free card. Not going to happen, no matter how much of this forum's time you waste.
You tried to defraud AAdvantage, you got caught, and now you're angry about it and fishing for a get-out-of-jail free card. Not going to happen, no matter how much of this forum's time you waste.
#104
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,301
honestly snowycali, it seems like your attitude about this whole thing, even including towards the other posters in this thread who've tried to be helpful to you, is one of general crankiness and hostility. I'm sure you're frustrated and angry at guilt by association, but as a friendly tip, it's coming across in everything you write on here, and I agree with others' advice here, that is have someone else write the letter to AA, if you do it, write it FOR YOU. I'm just irritated reading what you're writing even though you may not mean to come across that way. As others said, I'm sure that helped shorten the patience level of whoever was asking you for answers at AA.
#105
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
Is there any reason to assume AA does NOT read posts on FT, particularly threads dealing with "frozen/blocked accts"? If so, OP may have already "cooked his own goose".