No more printed Wine/Champagne/Port list

Old Dec 23, 2023, 10:10 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by scubadu
Have you considered the possibility that this FA might have their own personal interest and enjoyment in wine vs. being "trained" by UA? I mean, there is likely to be tremendous variance between FAs that actually like and enjoy wine vs. those who perhaps don't even drink.

I'm not making excuses and I do hope AA brings back the printed descriptions, but I'm just saying your "data point" doesn't necessarily imply that UA is "better" in regards to "training" FAs on wine...

Regards
My point was not saying UA was better, but rather the ability to know and read and relay the wine label. And yes, variability in crew is part of flying an North American airline. Just like I had many excellent FAs on AA, and then on Transcon F where the purser decided not to work and let customer self-serve (which is a FAA violation), then claims that there's no more wine onboard once the bottles ran out.

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Old Dec 23, 2023, 10:52 am
  #92  
 
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just ridiculous to cut this out after flying MAD-JFK-SFO yesterday. MAD-JFK the FA admitted she knew nothing of wine so couldnt speak when i asked what they had but she was happy to let me do a tasting which is nice, but c'mon, how is this time effective?

i just want to read a card and make a choice and not have to deal with a back and forth on something so basic.
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Old Dec 23, 2023, 11:03 am
  #93  
 
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Originally Posted by VSLover
just ridiculous to cut this out after flying MAD-JFK-SFO yesterday. MAD-JFK the FA admitted she knew nothing of wine so couldnt speak when i asked what they had but she was happy to let me do a tasting which is nice, but c'mon, how is this time effective?

i just want to read a card and make a choice and not have to deal with a back and forth on something so basic.
I’ve found it hit or miss with respect to FAs knowing the wines / engaging in answering questions or showing bottles. Most are happy to do that. Given that this temporary card says that we should engage with the FAs, you’d think the airline would give some guidance to the FAs on what to do for their own sake. Tough spot to be on the front lines with limited information.

Suffice it to say, looking forward to my DFW-FRA J trip in a few days. All the more reason to use a FFD chit and go right to sleep.
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Old Dec 23, 2023, 11:09 am
  #94  
 
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Originally Posted by ryanbriar
I’ve found it hit or miss with respect to FAs knowing the wines / engaging in answering questions or showing bottles. Most are happy to do that. Given that this temporary card says that we should engage with the FAs, you’d think the airline would give some guidance to the FAs on what to do for their own sake. Tough spot to be on the front lines with limited information.

Suffice it to say, looking forward to my DFW-FRA J trip in a few days. All the more reason to use a FFD chit and go right to sleep.
and thats the risk! the primary FA serving me on MAD-JFK was the typical cannot be bothered with anything and complained loudly about everything. fortunately everyone else working the flight were lovely, as was the main FA on the transcon.

so this is not going to help when you are stuck with the surly for 6+ hours.
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Old Dec 23, 2023, 11:18 am
  #95  
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Knowing about wine and knowing what they have to offer are entirely two different things. One is completely unnecessary and the other is absolutely mandatory.

I'll let the reader decide which is which.
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Old Dec 23, 2023, 11:42 am
  #96  
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Originally Posted by scubadu
Have you considered the possibility that this FA might have their own personal interest and enjoyment in wine vs. being "trained" by UA? I mean, there is likely to be tremendous variance between FAs that actually like and enjoy wine vs. those who perhaps don't even drink.

I'm not making excuses and I do hope AA brings back the printed descriptions, but I'm just saying your "data point" doesn't necessarily imply that UA is "better" in regards to "training" FAs on wine...

Regards
I don't think you need training to meet a bare minimum standard of knowing what's on offer. Part time employees manage at restaurants, including high schoolers. All it takes is looking at the bottles and being able to relay this accurately. The expectation isn't that FAs need to be a sommelier; there's a big middle ground between that and "red or white".

I worked various gigs in the service industry when I was young. Despite being a vegetarian all my life, I was able to provide service and relay information on various meat items, none of which I had any personal experience tasting or experiencing. If restaurants can do it with staff with a far higher turnover rate at a fraction of the payscale, it's a function of actively not wanting to do it vs. not being able to.
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Old Dec 23, 2023, 6:59 pm
  #97  
 
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Originally Posted by PTahCha
My point was not saying UA was better, but rather the ability to know and read and relay the wine label. And yes, variability in crew is part of flying an North American airline. Just like I had many excellent FAs on AA, and then on Transcon F where the purser decided not to work and let customer self-serve (which is a FAA violation), then claims that there's no more wine onboard once the bottles ran out.

You should file a DOT complaint with this photo. If AA won’t get rid of bad FAs, I’m sure the DOT would have a word.
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Old Dec 24, 2023, 5:29 am
  #98  
 
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is it real a FAA violation given BA have always had self serve wines in the snack bar on flights to/from US for biz/first?

edit: or doesnt the rule actually apply only to drinks a pax brings on board themselves ie duty free?
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Last edited by VSLover; Dec 24, 2023 at 10:56 am Reason: ...
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Old Dec 24, 2023, 11:54 am
  #99  
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On transcon Flagship F today- lol someone forgot to remove the “recommended wine pairing” footnote
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Old Dec 25, 2023, 3:51 am
  #100  
 
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Originally Posted by dw

On transcon Flagship F today- lol someone forgot to remove the “recommended wine pairing” footnote

well on SFO-JFK in flagship first they went a step further and opted for no menus at all!

the very well intentioned and lovely flight attendant (who was too harried to do PDBs by the by) tried explaining the options and had not been given any descriptions. further there were only three options meaning one was missing.

as i have the morning flight to LHR today, i skipped the wine explanations but kind of wanted to ask just because the FA was so energetic about it all.
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Old Dec 25, 2023, 10:38 am
  #101  
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Originally Posted by VSLover
is it real a FAA violation given BA have always had self serve wines in the snack bar on flights to/from US for biz/first?

edit: or doesnt the rule actually apply only to drinks a pax brings on board themselves ie duty free?

14 CFR § 121.575

(a) No person may drink any alcoholic beverage aboard an aircraft unless the certificate holder operating the aircraft has served that beverage to him.

(b) No certificate holder may serve any alcoholic beverage to any person aboard any of its aircraft who—

(1) Appears to be intoxicated;

(2) Is escorting a person or being escorted in accordance with 49 CFR 1544.221; or

(3) Has a deadly or dangerous weapon accessible to him while aboard the aircraft in accordance with 49 CFR 1544.219, 1544.221, or 1544.223.

By having self service, the flight attendant has no way of monitoring the passenger who might have been overindulged. Same reason why bartenders can cutoff further orders if the person is too drunk.
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Old Dec 26, 2023, 7:50 pm
  #102  
 
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I saw the snap off wine bottles on the trolley in J this morning from FRA to CLT. Probably a gruner. Didn’t bother to take a closer look and stuck with gin and tonic. Why does that sommelier on the menu page explaining to inquire with the flight attendants about what wines are offered look so angry ? Doesn’t seem very welcoming.
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Old Dec 26, 2023, 10:08 pm
  #103  
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Originally Posted by PTahCha
(a) No person may drink any alcoholic beverage aboard an aircraft unless the certificate holder operating the aircraft has served that beverage to him.
.
So, is BYOB the next step? As long as airlines serve it.

Would be a win all around if airlines can coordinate with a liquor wholesaler and airport liquor stores at airside.
A) Passengers can drink what they like.
B)Airlines charge the same price for a ticket, and can consolidate what they want to carry as basic alcohol items.
C) Airport/liquor companies can make more profit now.
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Old Dec 26, 2023, 10:16 pm
  #104  
 
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Originally Posted by PTahCha

14 CFR § 121.575

(a) No person may drink any alcoholic beverage aboard an aircraft unless the certificate holder operating the aircraft has served that beverage to him.

(b) No certificate holder may serve any alcoholic beverage to any person aboard any of its aircraft who—
...
By having self service, the flight attendant has no way of monitoring the passenger who might have been overindulged. Same reason why bartenders can cutoff further orders if the person is too drunk.
So, textual interpretation is something I do for a living, and this would be a great example of a legal question that might not be as obvious as just quoting the statute. The question is, of course, what does it mean for the certificate holder to "serve" the beverage to the passenger? Does the FA need to hand me the wine, or is setting it up in the galley enough? It is, after all, still "served" in a sense (in the same way that a buffet is served). Likewise, one could argue that "serve" here just operates to prohibit passengers from consuming their own self-served alcohol rather than to limit the manner of service of airline-provided alcohol. We could argue about whether "serve" is or isn't ambiguous, and a federal court would likely defer to the FAA's own interpretation of the term if it were to be litigated.

I took a look through federal court decisions citing this CFR and there are no court of appeals cases that cite it in any relevant context. Then I pulled FAA hearing decisions and I found some covid-era rulings about folks who violated the CFR in the context of violating a mask mandate or related instruction, but nothing that articulates which of the above definitions of "serve" would prevail. If you know of any relevant rulings that narrow the definition of "serve," I would be interested in them. Otherwise, I have a hard time viewing this as a case of an FAA violation (at least not a clear one).

That was all mostly off-topic. To bring it back on-topic, I gotta say, every time I see this thread and think "man AA is getting it wrong," I remind myself that DL literally serves nasty cans of "white or red" as its options.
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Old Dec 27, 2023, 6:22 am
  #105  
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Originally Posted by platbrownguy
That was all mostly off-topic. To bring it back on-topic, I gotta say, every time I see this thread and think "man AA is getting it wrong," I remind myself that DL literally serves nasty cans of "white or red" as its options.
Not that the wine program on DL is good either, but they’re now only serving the cans in coach. They switched back to bottles in F.
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