How did we take off during a ground stop?
Nov 29, 2022, 5:25 pm
#1
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How did we take off during a ground stop?
Not specifically an AA question, but I was flying AA so I will start here. Curious about something. I flew to MSP today, which had a big snowstorm.
There was first a ground delay, then a ground stop. Ground stop was scheduled to end at 3:30 ET. We boarded plane before this. Shortly before we departed gate, ground stop was extended to 4:30 ET.
I assumed we would not leave gate. I was pleasantly surprised when we did. We took off before 3:30, which was before the original expiration time of the ground stop.
As a layman, I am guessing that there are “exceptions”? I am just curious, if anyone in the industry can explain how this actually works. The language on the FAA site made it sound like “no one is allowed to take off to this airport”. But, there must be some grey area?
There was first a ground delay, then a ground stop. Ground stop was scheduled to end at 3:30 ET. We boarded plane before this. Shortly before we departed gate, ground stop was extended to 4:30 ET.
I assumed we would not leave gate. I was pleasantly surprised when we did. We took off before 3:30, which was before the original expiration time of the ground stop.
As a layman, I am guessing that there are “exceptions”? I am just curious, if anyone in the industry can explain how this actually works. The language on the FAA site made it sound like “no one is allowed to take off to this airport”. But, there must be some grey area?
Nov 29, 2022, 9:09 pm
#3
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Was the ground stop in effect for all departure airports?
If the snow was expected to be over and the airfield cleared in an hour, it's possible the FAA might have only stopped traffic originating from Minneapolis (ZMP) and adjacent ATC enroute center airspaces like ZAU, ZDV, ZKC.
I've also seen carrier specific ground stops. Any chance it was only DL flights?
If the snow was expected to be over and the airfield cleared in an hour, it's possible the FAA might have only stopped traffic originating from Minneapolis (ZMP) and adjacent ATC enroute center airspaces like ZAU, ZDV, ZKC.
I've also seen carrier specific ground stops. Any chance it was only DL flights?
Nov 30, 2022, 5:53 am
#4
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Many possibilities. But it's not uncommon for a ground stop to be issued by ATC, with an 'expected' end time, but many factors can change that allow the aircraft to depart (or expect further delay...). In your case, they may have allowed the departure to proceed to MSP because it was expected the conditions would be safe enough to land by the time of your expected arrival. How was it there once you arrived?
Nov 30, 2022, 7:08 am
#5
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Was the ground stop in effect for all departure airports?
If the snow was expected to be over and the airfield cleared in an hour, it's possible the FAA might have only stopped traffic originating from Minneapolis (ZMP) and adjacent ATC enroute center airspaces like ZAU, ZDV, ZKC.
I've also seen carrier specific ground stops. Any chance it was only DL flights?
If the snow was expected to be over and the airfield cleared in an hour, it's possible the FAA might have only stopped traffic originating from Minneapolis (ZMP) and adjacent ATC enroute center airspaces like ZAU, ZDV, ZKC.
I've also seen carrier specific ground stops. Any chance it was only DL flights?
Nov 30, 2022, 7:14 am
#6
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Many possibilities. But it's not uncommon for a ground stop to be issued by ATC, with an 'expected' end time, but many factors can change that allow the aircraft to depart (or expect further delay...). In your case, they may have allowed the departure to proceed to MSP because it was expected the conditions would be safe enough to land by the time of your expected arrival. How was it there once you arrived?
Nov 30, 2022, 9:17 am
#7
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It may have been lifted early and it took the FAA a while to update their website. They tend to change at a moment's notice.
Rest assured that the ATC would not have let the plane take off if there was a full ground stop in effect. It just wouldn't happen.
Rest assured that the ATC would not have let the plane take off if there was a full ground stop in effect. It just wouldn't happen.
Nov 30, 2022, 7:47 pm
#9
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not only did it state a ground stop was in effect, but several minutes before we left the gate it was updated and showed the stop extended for an additional hour.
Nov 30, 2022, 8:35 pm
#10
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From https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...ection_13.html (emphasis mine)
The term "stop" may be deceiving, but it's not as absolute as it sounds.
Edit to add: Since you mention the ground stop ended at 4:30 ET I assume it was this one:
https://www.fly.faa.gov/adv/adv_othe...eDate=11/29/22
Ground stop(s) (GS) override all other traffic management initiatives. Aircraft must not be released from a GS without the approval of the originator of the GS.
- GENERAL
Edit to add: Since you mention the ground stop ended at 4:30 ET I assume it was this one:
https://www.fly.faa.gov/adv/adv_othe...eDate=11/29/22
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (Manual) ZLA ZAU ZLC ZDC ZNY ZFW ZOB ZDV ZOA
ZSE ZBW ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYQB CYTZ CYYC CYEG
CYLW CYYJ CYVR
ZSE ZBW ZKC ZME ZID ZAB ZMP CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYQB CYTZ CYYC CYEG
CYLW CYYJ CYVR
Last edited by _kurt; Nov 30, 2022 at 9:14 pm
Dec 1, 2022, 10:21 am
#11
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Where did you depart from? If you departed from CLT, they are not part of the Ground Stop (if it was the one posted above) as they are controlled by ZTL and are not included in the stop. This would also apply if departing MIA, as ZMA is not part of the stop. If you departed PHL or DFW the stop should have applied.
Dec 2, 2022, 7:05 pm
#12
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Where did you depart from? If you departed from CLT, they are not part of the Ground Stop (if it was the one posted above) as they are controlled by ZTL and are not included in the stop. This would also apply if departing MIA, as ZMA is not part of the stop. If you departed PHL or DFW the stop should have applied.
Dec 2, 2022, 8:38 pm
#13
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Dec 2, 2022, 11:52 pm
#14
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A "Ground Stop" is an ATC tool to keep air traffic at manageable levels. When there is a ground stop in place for an airport, aircraft destined for that airport are not supposed to depart until the ground stop is lifted/expires. This doesn't preclude ATC from making exceptions as needed. It is difficult to say what happened in your particular circumstance, but there are several possibilities that are more likely than others such as dispatch calling ATC and begging to get a particular flight off the ground for some logistical reason, someone on your flight knew someone in the ATC system and was able to negotiate a release, or someone in the tower at your departure airport screwed up and released your flight while the GS was in place.