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Why do flights leave early when connecting passengers will miss them?

Why do flights leave early when connecting passengers will miss them?

Old Nov 7, 2022, 6:55 pm
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by jordyn
I agree with all of the above; the real question is why AA is apparently uninterested in making the type of investment that United did.

I feel pretty strongly that instead of measuring on-time performance of flights, the DOT should make the airlines measure the on-time performance of passengers (i.e., what fraction of passengers complete their end-to-end trip according to the published itinerary, and by how much are they delayed?). This would incentivize them to care both about standing people who miss connections while also considering those who might be delayed on the flight being held. As it is, AA doesn't seem to care at all about the effect on connecting passengers, even if a bunch of people are going to be stuck overnight versus a 15 minute delay for the rest of the folks on the flight.
Honestly they made an even more impressive investment into software to handle weather disruptions. I wouldn't be surprised if they're running something in the background, too. But the fact is in an industry like airlines, a good heuristic is stick to the schedule as much as possible and figure out the mess later because otherwise you might just be making things worse. So I know it sounds weird, but I've found things work much better when employees are worried about doing their job according to their criteria than worrying about the organization as a whole. It sounds wrong, but it can be better than a thousand people all trying to make uncoordinated decisions that make everything worse.
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Old Nov 7, 2022, 7:40 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by thelark
OP didnt suggest holding, but rather departing at the scheduled time (I.e., not early) - quite a difference.
If the flight is ready to go, why sit not moving if you can get going? Why have the plane sit for 10 minutes just because? In order to depart the gate there are myriad of things that have to happen. If the departure time is, say, 5PM, they can't make sure that everyone is seated, all check lists complete, all doors closed, jet-bridge or jet-stairs removed, etc, etc, at 4:59PM and hope that it all only takes 60 seconds to complete. So they, airlines, have parameters based on plane size along with a bunch of other important stuff that has to be done before pushback Those parameters are almost certainly based on standard practices and established time-studies.

So if you need to pushback at 5PM, you work backwards to establish what time the door closes, what time boarding needs to be complete, etc. If, through a series of events, some of those things don't take as long as normal, you may not know that's going to happen until it happens. But you've started them on time, you just happen to finish them early. But when you've finished them, you've finished them and you're ready to go, even if that is 10 minutes early.

If you then say "let's leave the boarding door open in case any late connections can make it on by 4:51, or 4:55. or 4:59:30, then you likely have to start some of the preflight stuff over again or at least take the time to update stuff. And before you know it, it's now 5:02 or 5:08, etc, and you are late and possibly putting your flight's slot at risk.
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Old Nov 7, 2022, 8:31 pm
  #33  
 
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What no one mentioned is that an incoming aircraft may need the gate to deplane. Delaying the departure of the flight may also affect delays of other aircraft.
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 4:32 am
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by cssmd27
Question for those of you with a lot of historical "experience" - i.e. age. Did AA (and all airlines for that matter) used to be willing to hold a flight if they knew you were running through the airport back in the mid 80's or earlier? I seem to remember this being something done, but I was in my teens back then. I can remember stopping at the first gate agent and telling them to call the gate we were going to let them know we were in the airport and running to the gate and they would hold the flight a few minutes. Am I misremembering? We were not frequent flyers by any stretch back then and enormous changes have occurred involving security and technology.
It was a totally different business. Flight loads averaged between 50% and 70%. Airlines didn't have schedules that included tight banks and very tight turns. Today everything has moved to the minute precision that WN developed decades ago to get planes on and off gates very quickly. For WN it was one factor in how they survived the early days. Holding a flight 5 minutes didn't have the consequences it has today.
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 6:38 am
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by justhere
If the flight is ready to go, why sit not moving if you can get going? Why have the plane sit for 10 minutes just because? In order to depart the gate there are myriad of things that have to happen. If the departure time is, say, 5PM, they can't make sure that everyone is seated, all check lists complete, all doors closed, jet-bridge or jet-stairs removed, etc, etc, at 4:59PM and hope that it all only takes 60 seconds to complete. So they, airlines, have parameters based on plane size along with a bunch of other important stuff that has to be done before pushback Those parameters are almost certainly based on standard practices and established time-studies.

So if you need to pushback at 5PM, you work backwards to establish what time the door closes, what time boarding needs to be complete, etc. If, through a series of events, some of those things don't take as long as normal, you may not know that's going to happen until it happens. But you've started them on time, you just happen to finish them early. But when you've finished them, you've finished them and you're ready to go, even if that is 10 minutes early.

If you then say "let's leave the boarding door open in case any late connections can make it on by 4:51, or 4:55. or 4:59:30, then you likely have to start some of the preflight stuff over again or at least take the time to update stuff. And before you know it, it's now 5:02 or 5:08, etc, and you are late and possibly putting your flight's slot at risk.
youre confusing the terms early, on time and late
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 8:42 am
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by LupineChemist
Honestly they made an even more impressive investment into software to handle weather disruptions. I wouldn't be surprised if they're running something in the background, too. But the fact is in an industry like airlines, a good heuristic is stick to the schedule as much as possible and figure out the mess later because otherwise you might just be making things worse. So I know it sounds weird, but I've found things work much better when employees are worried about doing their job according to their criteria than worrying about the organization as a whole. It sounds wrong, but it can be better than a thousand people all trying to make uncoordinated decisions that make everything worse.
I think we can all agree that holding a flight is a complex decision that shouldn't be left to individual employees without the full facts, but is there any evidence whatsoever that AA has a United-like algorithm running in the background that factors in missed connections/gate availability/crew time out/last flight of the day/etc. and decides whether to hold a plane for a few minutes? I have seen no indication of anything like that and "we shouldn't try to optimize this problem because we might just make it worse" sounds a lot like AA but not like a successful company. Even if AA wanted to be conservative in how it held flights, there are situations where a flight could be held with 100% certainty of no downstream impacts and a competent organization would be able to use the readily available data to identify those situations.

A few weeks back I missed a connection by about five minutes where my connecting flight was forecasted to arrive twenty minutes early and did. No other plane immediately took the gate once my plane left and there was not weather at either end that would have put the early arrival in question. The destination was a very small airport and it was a midday departure so gate availability or the destination airport closing for the night were not factors. Zero identifiable reasons they could not have held it for me and saved me five hours of sitting at the hub waiting on the next flight.

Last edited by Check; Nov 8, 2022 at 9:48 am
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 9:28 am
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by EXP100
It was a totally different business. Flight loads averaged between 50% and 70%. Airlines didn't have schedules that included tight banks and very tight turns. Today everything has moved to the minute precision that WN developed decades ago to get planes on and off gates very quickly. For WN it was one factor in how they survived the early days. Holding a flight 5 minutes didn't have the consequences it has today.
Well it has consequences, and then it doesn't have consequences. I would think that at a minimum, AA agents should be able to confer with dispatch and the crew when 1) the plane departing is the last departure of the night and 2) the plane departing is simply going to RON at the outstation where it is going to.

Now I will admit there are a ton of variables here. For example, departures to Europe are often assigned a specific time slot and routing track. If you miss that track by 15 minutes, you could be in for a nasty delay - which affects everybody. But, if its 10:00 pm at DFW and there are six passengers who have arrived from ORD 20 minutes late and are hoping to make the 10:25 pm departure to LRD (and everybody knows that, after landing in LRD, that plane will just sit on the tarmac until 5:55 am the next morning), what is the absolute rush to get that plane off the gate at 10:25 pm when you will have six additional passengers to rebook for the following day?
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 12:23 pm
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Stripe
Because the gate agents are not rewarded if they delay closing a flight in order to help out a couple of connectors. They are punished if they miss the departure time, unless the dispatcher instructs them to hold the flight.
The gate agents don't make the decision on waiting for connecting passengers. The Operations Center makes that call. If Operations does not ask them to hold the flight, they will close it out as expected. If Operations tells them to hold it for xx minutes or for xx passengers from flight 1234, then the agents will do that.
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 7:38 pm
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by thelark
youre confusing the terms early, on time and late
Am I? Pretty sure I'm not but please explain why you think I am.
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Old Nov 8, 2022, 8:17 pm
  #40  
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Originally Posted by cssmd27
Question for those of you with a lot of historical "experience" - i.e. age. Did AA (and all airlines for that matter) used to be willing to hold a flight if they knew you were running through the airport back in the mid 80's or earlier? I seem to remember this being something done, but I was in my teens back then. I can remember stopping at the first gate agent and telling them to call the gate we were going to let them know we were in the airport and running to the gate and they would hold the flight a few minutes. Am I misremembering? We were not frequent flyers by any stretch back then and enormous changes have occurred involving security and technology.
I remember this too. I remember panicking about missing a connection and being reassured that the flight was being held. It wasn't a matter of holding the flight to the point that it would be late but more like an on time departure (instead of 10 min early departure) or possibly a minute or two delay. I also remember being on a plane waiting to depart and an announcement being made that we were waiting for a bunch of connecting passengers.
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Old Nov 9, 2022, 5:23 am
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by justhere
Am I? Pretty sure I'm not but please explain why you think I am.
These kind of drive-by snark bombs are par for the course on FT. They just wanted to feel better about themselves and don't feel like they owe you an explanation.
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Old Nov 9, 2022, 6:40 am
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by justhere
Am I? Pretty sure I'm not but please explain why you think I am.
Well, OP clearly described the flight departing early - I.e., pushing back before its scheduled time to do so. Im taking that for face value and assuming were not talking about the gate closing on-time before pushback. You describe scenarios where the flight would clearly be late or it would be completely unreasonable to assume it could still be on time (e.g., closing 1 min prior to pushback). Thats not what OP described, where they had everyone on, except at least one person, and said screw it, were going anyway.

Originally Posted by nineworldseries
These kind of drive-by snark bombs are par for the course on FT. They just wanted to feel better about themselves and don't feel like they owe you an explanation.
thanks for dropping that little snark bomb - really helpful and moving the conversation along.
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Old Nov 9, 2022, 8:09 pm
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by thelark
Well, OP clearly described the flight departing early - I.e., pushing back before its scheduled time to do so. Im taking that for face value and assuming were not talking about the gate closing on-time before pushback. You describe scenarios where the flight would clearly be late or it would be completely unreasonable to assume it could still be on time (e.g., closing 1 min prior to pushback). Thats not what OP described, where they had everyone on, except at least one person, and said screw it, were going anyway.
I see the confusion. Either you didn't read what I wrote or the concept of a timeline wasn't apparent to you. I explained how it could depart early even if all other parameters, such as gate closing, were on time. What I described was what could happen, and does happen for that matter, if you don't meet the time parameters of a significant number of steps that lead up to departing the aircraft. And I pointed out that if you meet all the time parameters and you happen to get done earlier than planned, why have the plane sit and wait. And I also explained why, if things are completed earlier than planned, you can't necessarily just wait for late passengers because that may mean having to start certain process over again and there may not be time for that. The reason I used example like 1 minute prior to pushback is because the OP said, I think, that the plane departed 10 minutes early. So there are only 9 different minutes that I could use as an example and I used some from both sides of the 9 minutes.

Does that make sense now?
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Old Nov 9, 2022, 9:38 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by justhere
I see the confusion. Either you didn't read what I wrote or the concept of a timeline wasn't apparent to you. I explained how it could depart early even if all other parameters, such as gate closing, were on time. What I described was what could happen, and does happen for that matter, if you don't meet the time parameters of a significant number of steps that lead up to departing the aircraft. And I pointed out that if you meet all the time parameters and you happen to get done earlier than planned, why have the plane sit and wait. And I also explained why, if things are completed earlier than planned, you can't necessarily just wait for late passengers because that may mean having to start certain process over again and there may not be time for that. The reason I used example like 1 minute prior to pushback is because the OP said, I think, that the plane departed 10 minutes early. So there are only 9 different minutes that I could use as an example and I used some from both sides of the 9 minutes.

Does that make sense now?
w/r/t the bolder portion: because there is a passenger trying to connect. Whats the point of having a schedule only to decide to blow through it? I understand all the what-ifs you describe, but for the simple sake of the OPs scenario, it seems like AA just didnt give a damn. Well never know if there were extenuating operational circumstances.

appreciate the condescending tone in your response. Great post!
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Old Nov 10, 2022, 7:49 pm
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by thelark
youre confusing the terms early, on time and late
Speaking of condescending posts...
Originally Posted by thelark
w/r/t the bolder portion: because there is a passenger trying to connect. Whats the point of having a schedule only to decide to blow through it? I understand all the what-ifs you describe, but for the simple sake of the OPs scenario, it seems like AA just didnt give a damn. Well never know if there were extenuating operational circumstances.

appreciate the condescending tone in your response. Great post!
Anyway, my post wasn't intended to be condescending. I still think you are missing the point though. You're taking something I said out of context. The departure of an aircraft doesn't happen in the vacuum of it just pushing back. There are a series of events that have to happen. They could take longer than plan or they could take less time than plan. There are so many things that go into this and so many other factors that could determine whether to hold or not, it really just isn't as simple as it seems on the surface of it.
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