npretnar

Hi all,

Been an EXP for 3 years. I'm actually writing on behalf of a friend of mine and his wife who have been EXP for 2 years (not counting COVID extension). I'm relaying this story 2nd hand, but he's a pretty trustworthy guy, so I believe him. They have quite a story regarding an involuntary downgrade at OGG. I can't find anything in AA policy about involuntary downgrades, but I'm curious if anyone knows anything.

My friends arrive at the gate with PAID (not miles, not upgrades) seats in J having been assigned for months. The gate agent calls them + 1 other J pax up and downgrades them to Premium Economy because "there are pilots onboard who need to rest." My friend asks to speak to the manager. They continue boarding. The manager comes over after everyone is on the plane, goes on to the plane, and allows my 2 friends to board due to 2 seats in J having opened up because a couple of pax had their connecting flights canceled and decided to de-plane.

When my friends got to their seats, they noticed 3 pilots in uniform scattered throughout the business class cabin. Presumedly these are the three who needed to "rest." Mind you, I doubt these pilots were actually working the flight, given the 787-9 has crew rest quarters on board, so a 3-person crew would have sufficient space for resting. Rather, I suspect these pilots were commuting to DFW to work early morning flights.

Does anyone know AA policy in this situation? I find it utterly irresponsible (and know that I would have been irate if this happened to me) that AA bumps paying passengers so that re-positioning crew can have adequate rest. The fact that the crew need to re-position on a red-eye and go straight to work is either 1) fault of AA schedulers who shouldn't have allowed the crew to accept e.g. a DFW-OGG assignment then a DFW-XXX assignment the next day; 2) the faulty of the AA crew for possibly extending their Maui "layover" too long. Either way, completely unacceptable to involuntarily downgrade paying passengers so that UNIFORMED crew can sit in Business Class.

I don't give a hoot if there are rest requirements at play --- they should sit in Economy and if their flights the next day have to be canceled, so be it. Just saying ... Terrible policy from a customer service standpoint (if it even is a policy at all; I've never seen this happen before O.W).

FlyerBeek

I highly doubt these pilots were either "commuting" and/or scheduled to fly upon arriving in DFW. I suspect they were simply deadheading back from OGG and the AA pilot contract requires them to be booked in F for a flight of this length.

-FlyerBeek

npretnar

Ahh ... I see. Thanks for informing me. Still, paid pax should not be bumped because of this.

meechyathere

Any word on what the compensation was?
(if any was offered at the time of downgrade)

npretnar

The gate agent actually offered no compensation, but said it was just "policy" to bump them. Until the manager came over and offered them two seats from pax who de-planed, nobody offered any compensation.

I would (personally) want compensation beyond the fare difference in this case, but it turned out to be unnecessary since, due to the 2 pax deplaning, my friends got 2 J seats anyway. But I would think, if they hadn't, this situation is a lot different than getting rebooked on an IROPS when all seats are full and they offer fare difference. I am curious how AA would have handled it, especially for EXP.

meechyathere

That's super weird! Usually they ask/beg for volunteers and offer up compensation before they start bumping people.

But as we know well here, the way things happen at OGG is not always like everywhere else..

Also, apologies for editing my comment as you were replying!!

unfrequentflyer

Did anyone call the EXP CS to complain?

msm2000uk

From memory, the agreement between AA and it's Pilots is very generous when it comes to travel - it's pretty much seats in the highest class available, irrespective of passenger loads.

It's for this reason that I never book seat 1A on a longhaul with AA.

M

FlyerBeek

Actually, some other airlines are much more generous with respect to first class pilot deadheads. On AA, I believe confirmed first class deadheads are only for long-haul international and Hawaii/Alaska flights, IIRC.

-FlyerBeek

arminschwarm

Out of curiosity. Was that flight catered in F? Did it have pillows and so on?

jayer

I understand your friends were on a paid ticket, but do you know fare class and it's TOC's? There is paid first that is a semi-promo fare, and there is paid first with great big money. Capacity downgrades allegedly happen in a prescribed order. Getting FAM'd or Concierge Key'd or management bumped at the last minute can be much more seat specific. But GA fibbing is SOP rather than telling the painful truth. Not that I blame the GA for avoiding pain.

Agree, except it happens elsewhere in Hawaii too. Not to forget Miami and SLC.

npretnar

Yes. Their fare class was D.

I'm more flabbergasted by the fact that the GA chose an EXP on a paid first to downgrade, rather than someone else. I doubt there were 27 other people (there are 30 seats in J on the 787-9) with higher status.

npretnar

Yes. Fully catered, Flagship, actually. So, the "good" meals ... not just a piece of bread with cheese spread.

jayer

Deleted. The hand is faster than the mind.

Raymoland

Your only real possible angle here was were the right people chosen for the downgrade? And in the end, since no downgrade occurred, it's just a case of filing this away for furture reference. Involuntary downgrades are always a risk with flying paid first. And the required compensation usually sucks or is non-existent. I'm facing the same exact thing now with a cancelled flight - no first space available on a suitable rerouting. So do I just sit in the back or go well out of my way in time and distance to preserve first.

First world problems, really,

As others have said, the crews contract with AA stipulates that they can take first class seats and displace pax to do so.. You should know that complaining that they can "rest" just as well in economy won't get you anywhere. The FAA has actually specified the kind of seat that can be considered rest (there are I think three different classes of crew rest facilities) and economy doesn't qualify for any of them.

But because of the way rest rules are written, they wouldn't be legal to operate a flight on arrival into DFW so the agent probably didn't use 100% accurate language when they said the crew needed "rest". But they probably did just complete a flight to OGG and would be allowed to Deadhead back to DFW, (Deadheads count as duty time if they are before a flying assignment but not if they are after a flying assignment). They may very well have brought the plane you were riding on into OGG just prior. This would explain the uniform. Believe it or not, most pilots would rather slip into civilian gear for a long flight like this so if they were returning from a layover it's unlikely they'd be in uniform.

Can we please for once and for all distinguish between a "commuting" pilot and a Deadheading one.

Commuting pilots are traveling to work on their own time. They will be given the best space available seat but cannot displace anyone from their seats. They get left behind or sit in the cockpit if the flight is full. They are usually just grateful to have any seat.

Deadheading pilots are being paid by the airline to go somewhere either to operate a flight once they get there or because they need to return to their home base. They are assigned by crew control to the flight, are provided with PNRs like the rest of us and then the gate agents follow whatever pre-assigned rules exist to provide the crewmember with a seat.