carlosdca

A clear example was the turndown service in F.
Back when it was implemented in 2011 (turndown service = FA making the bed for you), the union filed a grievance as "research needed to be done to ensure this was not going to cause an unreasonable workload for the Flight Attendants".
Not sure what happened at the end but regardless, I would not expect any AA FA in F to do anything for me other than bring the food and pour one drink.

rucksack

Exactly. If anyone could do it, it'd be Delta, since their FAs are not unionized. But this would be antithetical of their strategy of obfuscating business and first with their "Delta One" branding.

S80

It's cool to have the a new and better hard product (although everyone has their own opinion on which is the better seat anyways), but when so much traffic is domestic, no airline is going to pump money in when there's no idea on the expected ROI (I'm more thinking in terms of on a non-premium route (aka DFW to MIA or LAX)). In terms of a new product in the works, this could simply be a supply or pricing issue. Could be the same thing with the switch from the Concept D to the Super Diamond, or maybe Rockwell Collins wants to stop selling and manufacturing that seat.

I thought the whole idea of this marketing was to get around corporate travel booking requirements by marketing it as something different so business travelers could book it, but I may be mistaken here.

The product really is the flight from A to B, the whole idea of having different classes of service is to get more money from the people (or companies) who can afford it. It's done in every industry, take smartphones for example, they charge way more for extra storage, even though the product, the smartphone, is the same). With the rush to make business class better and better, the divide between J and F is getting smaller and smaller, so those who can afford it just don't see the advantage of paying more, and the airline doesn't really make any money on seats that go out empty or go to people who upgrade in whatever way (obviously they do make money on loyalty by keeping a customer coming back, but that's a whole other animal). This is particularly true when such things like the better service is not a guarantee, and other ways, such as elite status, giving the benefits on the ground. So if they do refit the 777Ws, I wouldn't be surprised if they nix the F cabin, as it just makes more economical sense to put a few more J seats on that they can actually sell.

NickRivas

Eek I hope they don’t underwhelm us with the new business product that’s supposed to come out in 2023 with the new 787-9 deliveries…and the a321x whatever it’s called

NickRivas

I hope it at least has a door to be more with BA/QR

Seat 1F

I agree that this would be the priority if any money were to be invested in seats over the next few years. Those reverse facing seats are the worst. If I were traveling on AA currently, I would avoid 772's and 788's like the plague. Even if you are in a forward facing seat, it's weird looking at the reverse facing seats. I sat in one of the reverse facing seats once on an 772 and I hated it. I refused to book J class on UA/BA when they had reverse-facing seats. I think BA still has them on some aircraft.

S80

BA still does as far as I'm aware, although it's better since you can pull up the dividing wall. Plus AA's seats are closer to actual coffins than J seats. They did refit them though to fix the rocking issue, added a stabilizer bar, but I wouldn't do anything other than a few hours in that seat.

jef787

I participated in the on-site testing of candidate biz class seats about 18 months ago. The best option in the test was quite nice and was laid out like the ones on Adient's website here:

https://www.adient-aerospace.com/products

rucksack

That's right. Delta wants to have it both ways: the want passengers to think of Delta One as first class, but they also want it to have it be classified as business class so that corporate travelers can book it more easily. The line between first and business is fuzzy, but I think most people here would consider Delta One to be much closer to other airlines' business class than first class, ignoring how it's actually classified.

ijgordon

Eh, I don’t buy it. Most non-FTers couldn’t tell you the difference between business and first class (the fact that domestic first class exists certainly muddies those waters). They market it to try and make it sound better than a “regular” business class, but really, it’s still not quite on par with top tier J classes like QR or SQ.

Back when Continental had BusinessFirst, that was obviously marketed as a hybrid, but 3-class aircraft were more common (DL, UA, and NW and possibly US still had F) and the product was objectively a hybrid. Today’s F classes that still exist are quite a big leap ahead of these branded J cabins (well except maybe AA/BA lol).

S80

The whole marketing thing is a mess. Take even the simplest domestic flight, which is supposed to be First and Economy. However, half the places you look (online/app, bp, cabin) it's listed as First, and the other half as Business.

Antarius

Finnair absolutely is part of the JV.

PHL

My mistake. So is there, or isn't there, a OneWorld regulation that requires 3 class service on certain routes? If not, then I would agree that we may see AA F go away to rationalize their offerings with DL and UA.

NickRivas

That's nice, is that basically the same seat that QR has on their new 789?

ijgordon

For sure. Some of that has to do with harmonizing booking codes, e.g., AA reserving F/A for only super-premium First and making "regular" premium class J (and D/I/etc.) regardless of destination. DL did similar recently. So they're all using "J" or a sub-class for the standard premium cabin and that's a business class code, even if they're trying to market it domestically as first class. And I can't even remember if AA is still calling the front cabin on 2-class/non-321T domestic flights First or Business. Definitely a mess! I suppose with "DeltaOne" or even "Flagship Business" it's pretty clear what you're getting.