NYC Flyer

Up until this flight, there were no valid routings between JFK and SNA with a "premium" first cabin (if Eagle still flew LAX-SNA, there probably would have been), and no premium first-class fares are filed. I can hold seat inventory in the F cabin in Sabre and see the proper F seat map, but there is no valid price...yet. Give it a day or two and AA will have the fare structure figured out, including F pricing.

Now, whether 30 premium seats makes any sense in this market is another story. No one has had sustained success in this market, even with domestic configured 757s--CO/UA have owned it via EWR for decades. It is in interesting experiment, but part of me thinks it's a bit of "well, we can't fill the seats out of LAX, so we might as well not fill them out of SNA and collect some market data". Longer term, IMHO this route has to have a two-cabin aircraft, though perhaps with lie-flats if AA decides to keep a sub-fleet and update it for all aisle-access (which might not work with take-off reqs at SNA).

BlooJoo

Good info, thanks. This is a strange aircraft choice for this segment.

SFO777

Not sure why you think it is so strange. There's lots of serious money in OC.

BlooJoo

There sure is. But there's lot of serious money in many places, and they don't support a three-cabin service. I think what supports a three-cabin service is large corporate/entertainment/VC/PE contracts. While OC is rich as h3ll, in general the private market (i.e. non commercial contracts) never seems to support three-cabin and/or lie-flat service. If it did, you'd see a lot more destinations with non-domestic equipment, and you don't.

NYC Flyer

Entrepreneurial pursuits and wealthy individuals definitely support lie-flats if the price is right (see B6 Mint).

Premium first, though, is a vanity/entertainment focused product only. Finance busineses (including VC and PE firms) and corporates do not pay for premium first class on domestic routes, and those that do on international routes generally require a significant min flight duration (unless business is sold out, perhaps). Guaranteed upgrades from full-fare J for some corporate accounts may provide add-hoc support to continue the service, however.

As I see it, this route needs a 15-20 seat lie-flat cabin longer term, otherwise it will revert to domestic config, or get cut. A second frequency would help too.

BlooJoo

I think this is all correct. I guess AA doesn’t have this aircraft as described, and the 32B is the closest thing. The odd thing is DL and UA have these exact config and don’t service this route with them (even to EWR). Does Mint serve this route? Or I’m guessing this is B6’s doing exactly that.

only1percent

No one is suggesting that one would buy or reconfigure a 3-class narrow-body aircraft for SNA-NYC service. The amount of non-revs on JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO in F on those aircraft even pre-Covid, and B6, UA and DL happily operating 2-class service on those routes, and AA now running the vast majority of its seat capacity in JFK-LAX on 772's with no three-class first class, suggests that on-purpose 3-class is on its way out everywhere, including LAX-JFK and SFO-JFK.

The immediate question is - having those A/C in inventory, what to do with them in the short-term? A big chunk of the lie-flat demand LAX-JFK is coming from people who prefer SNA (everyone who is closer, and a fair chunk of people who are farther away given the easier road access and smaller size of SNA). At a minimum it's a good experiment. SJC-JFK might be good trial as well for some of the same reasons, although the portion of the Bay Area market that prefers SJC to SFO is quite a bit smaller than that which prefers SNA to LAX.

NYC Flyer

AA never tried it when they had the international-equipped 757s either. This is an experiment using a underutilized sub-fleet that AA may not even keep around. B6 does not fly this route. Whether B6 places its code on the flight (and whether it sells it as a nonstop or offers premium cabin) is TBD.

Agree and will add that the fare differential from many J fares to F was pretty minimal at times. I recall many discussions on FT: "Is F worth $150, $200, etc more than J?". In addition to 3-class on its way out, competition has signaled that all-aisle access J is in.

There has always been bleed to LAX from the SNA market. The trick is offering the right product, price and frequency to curtail it. Outside of hubs, LAS Hawaii and intra-California, AUS is the only O&D focused route I recall a legacy carrier flying on a sustained basis. Probably off topic, but anyone remember others?

SNA, BUR and maybe SJC all scream A220 to me, assuming operational capabilities permit...

Herb687

Taken to its logical extreme, why would someone think that a wake turbulence caused crash following a 757 at one airport would lead to a ban of 757s at that airport and that airport alone when smaller aircraft might be in trail of 757s at thousands of other airports around the world?
And Harrison Ford uses a taxiway. If there's no golf course available.


Interesting that now in this RVSM world, ATC even has to be concerned with wake turbulence issues from "super" (A380) category aircraft in the enroute environment. There was a Challenger bizjet that went tumbling over the Indian Ocean when encountering wake in cruise from an A380 above. Thankfully the pilots recovered but I believe that the aircraft was ultimately a hull loss and they lost almost 9,000 ft of altitude before regaining control.

https://www.flightglobal.com/a380-wa...124052.article

bhomburg

Yes, the aircraft (a Challenger 604) had to be scrapped because the G-forces it endured during the tumble following the wake turbulence encounter exceeded the structural design load and repairing it wasn't economically feasible. There's pictures around showing the totally devastated interior.

chix

When I try to book the new flights as revenue JFK/SNA August 4-11, the flights come up and just roughly $300 and only 2 class is offered even though the seat map shows premium trans-con.

However, when I try to book using miles, the nonstop does not even show up. WEIRD. I guess they need to load the flights when using miles.

NYC Flyer

Well, that is interesting...checking Sabre on multiple dates, discounted economy inventory is loaded, business cabin is J booking code inventory only, and F booking code is zeroed out. Could simply reflect "in progress" machinations associated with readying the offering, or...?

chix

OK, so my eyes are not playing tricks on me and you noticed it too.

JALOO5-Flyer

AA website is doing this again - Showing "Flagship First" but you are actually booked in Flagship Business, and it seems right now there's no way one can book into the F cabin on AA.com (you can redirect from Google Flights or using third party sites). This has already been disturbing previously with AA's occasional one-time 772s on JFK-LAX.

Wondering for those who booked these fake Flagship First experiences - will you get 3 pcs of luggage, FF check-in, and FFD access?

EDIT: This is way too misguiding (searching JFK-LAX and including nearby airports)


EDIT2: Seems now it has been fixed on AA.com.

VSLover

flying the A321T and providing 3 class service are two different things. have they already said they will provide 3-class service on board? if not, then the sale patterns make sense, much like when they would run this plane on the JFK-BOS route and i see to recall i could easily select a F seat and not sure if that was because i was OWE or just lucky based on my purchase of a "first" fare.