Mar 30, 2023, 11:05 am
Last edit by: lowkeyflyer
Methods to bypass flight credit restrictions (primarily being unable to use them on Basic Economy tickets)
Inspired by United thread wiki: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unit...redit-ffc.html
Inspired by United thread wiki: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unit...redit-ffc.html
GUIDE to Trip Credit, Flight Credit, Travel Voucher, Gift Card, Refund
Jan 21, 2021, 11:24 am
#91
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
I am not one who has suggested that a change in flight number change equates to a cancellation. Flight numbers themselves are administrative conveniences and have no significance.
In this case, OP specifically states that the morning frequency is not operating, so he was offered the afternoon frequency. When a rule does not specify a definition, it gets its plain English meaning and this seems to fit.
I repeat that this is an easy chargeback and OP should pursue it. Carriers and more importantly their merchant acquirers do not appear to be tangling on this point and that is all that matters.
DOT complaints are fairly pointless at this point, although it is possible that at some post-pandemic point, the volume may move the needle in further rulemaking. But that is 2022 and beyond.
In this case, OP specifically states that the morning frequency is not operating, so he was offered the afternoon frequency. When a rule does not specify a definition, it gets its plain English meaning and this seems to fit.
I repeat that this is an easy chargeback and OP should pursue it. Carriers and more importantly their merchant acquirers do not appear to be tangling on this point and that is all that matters.
DOT complaints are fairly pointless at this point, although it is possible that at some post-pandemic point, the volume may move the needle in further rulemaking. But that is 2022 and beyond.
Jan 21, 2021, 11:47 am
#92
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,635
I am not one who has suggested that a change in flight number change equates to a cancellation. Flight numbers themselves are administrative conveniences and have no significance.
In this case, OP specifically states that the morning frequency is not operating, so he was offered the afternoon frequency. When a rule does not specify a definition, it gets its plain English meaning and this seems to fit.
I repeat that this is an easy chargeback and OP should pursue it. Carriers and more importantly their merchant acquirers do not appear to be tangling on this point and that is all that matters.
DOT complaints are fairly pointless at this point, although it is possible that at some post-pandemic point, the volume may move the needle in further rulemaking. But that is 2022 and beyond.
In this case, OP specifically states that the morning frequency is not operating, so he was offered the afternoon frequency. When a rule does not specify a definition, it gets its plain English meaning and this seems to fit.
I repeat that this is an easy chargeback and OP should pursue it. Carriers and more importantly their merchant acquirers do not appear to be tangling on this point and that is all that matters.
DOT complaints are fairly pointless at this point, although it is possible that at some post-pandemic point, the volume may move the needle in further rulemaking. But that is 2022 and beyond.
DOT has never defined terms like "signficant change" or "cancellation" in the regulations and has left it up to the airlines --
https://www.cozen.com/Templates/medi...12%202020).pdf
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/do...garding-95048/
https://www.cozen.com/Templates/medi...12%202020).pdf
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/do...garding-95048/
1st column on page 23129
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/.../2011-9736.pdf
Last edited by seawolf; Jan 21, 2021 at 11:53 am
Jan 21, 2021, 1:21 pm
#93
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
I'm not sure what basis should a chargeback be based on. AA ticket issued on non-refundable fares on/after 8 APR 2020 becomes refundable if there is a schedule change exceeding 4 hours. OP mentioned 1st segment was moved up earlier but moved up less than 4 hours.
Adding on details.
1st column on page 23129
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/.../2011-9736.pdf
Adding on details.
1st column on page 23129
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/.../2011-9736.pdf
What's important to note is that every major card issuer (there aren't that many) in the US is interpreting the Warning Letters that way (not surprising because it is what they say) and are issuing credits in short order to those who document the cancellation properly.
Jan 21, 2021, 2:31 pm
#94
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,635
As noted repeatedly in earlier posts in this thread, the DOT Warning Letters which recite its 2011 determination make it clear that either a cancellation or a significant change entitle the passenger to a refund. In this case, the significant change issue is a red herring because AA cancelled its flight. That alone entitles OP to a refund.
What's important to note is that every major card issuer (there aren't that many) in the US is interpreting the Warning Letters that way (not surprising because it is what they say) and are issuing credits in short order to those who document the cancellation properly.
What's important to note is that every major card issuer (there aren't that many) in the US is interpreting the Warning Letters that way (not surprising because it is what they say) and are issuing credits in short order to those who document the cancellation properly.
The 2011 position goes back further. It goes back to at least the 1996 Industry Letter which DoT is now referring to. Remember airlines schedules were published in paper timetables especially back in 1996. IME cancellation has always been non-operation of a flight listed on airline timetable. As such, cancellation only takes place last minute (day of departure or days prior to departure) when airline didn't operate flight due to weather/mechanical/airport closures/ATC/crew etc because it would have been impractical for airline to change and publish a new timetable without a significant lead time. A cancelled flight is one that is still on the timetable and has a status of CANCELLED showing up on flight status inquiries/airport monitors.
Cancellations don't include decisions to remove the flight from the timetable made months in advance (some airlines now have been pushing the envelope by tweaking schedule 1-2 weeks in advance). These changes don't show up on airport flight monitors or flight status inquires because they don't exist on the timetable. These flight operation decisions are schedule changes not cancellations.
DoT is going to have to revisit it's position on not having codify what a cancellation/significant schedule change is defined as.
As for chargebacks, issuers don't decide chargeback based only on cardmember chargeback. Airline has an opportunity to respond and AA can be simply response with that CoC incorporated by reference with OP ticket sale indicate refunds for non-refundable is only available if schedule change exceed 4 hours.
Jan 21, 2021, 2:48 pm
#95
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: NYC/PHX
Programs: IATA, Sabre, AvgeekAgent
Posts: 1,958
I think there is a bit of gray area here...the contracted transportation is from DTW to PVR using a connecting service. Schedule changes often involve new times, flight numbers, change of equipment, etc., all of which may lead to cancellation of one or more segments comprising the purchased service. When a connecting itinerary is purchased, I believe there is a strong argument to interperet cancellations and schedule changes in the context of the purchased city-pair, not individual connecting flight segments.
In this vein, the purchased "flight" is from DTW to PVR, and AA's position is that while the passenger's schedule has changed, the change is not one that meets the carrier's current policy for a refund (delay of 4+ hours). Whether this is a "significant change" is another matter entirely...
In this vein, the purchased "flight" is from DTW to PVR, and AA's position is that while the passenger's schedule has changed, the change is not one that meets the carrier's current policy for a refund (delay of 4+ hours). Whether this is a "significant change" is another matter entirely...
Jan 21, 2021, 4:09 pm
#96
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
DoT has opted not to define that a cancellation or a significant schedule change is. That's a factor as to why every airline is having consumer complaints about refund these days.
The 2011 position goes back further. It goes back to at least the 1996 Industry Letter which DoT is now referring to. Remember airlines schedules were published in paper timetables especially back in 1996. IME cancellation has always been non-operation of a flight listed on airline timetable. As such, cancellation only takes place last minute (day of departure or days prior to departure) when airline didn't operate flight due to weather/mechanical/airport closures/ATC/crew etc because it would have been impractical for airline to change and publish a new timetable without a significant lead time. A cancelled flight is one that is still on the timetable and has a status of CANCELLED showing up on flight status inquiries/airport monitors.
Cancellations don't include decisions to remove the flight from the timetable made months in advance (some airlines now have been pushing the envelope by tweaking schedule 1-2 weeks in advance). These changes don't show up on airport flight monitors or flight status inquires because they don't exist on the timetable. These flight operation decisions are schedule changes not cancellations.
DoT is going to have to revisit it's position on not having codify what a cancellation/significant schedule change is defined as.
As for chargebacks, issuers don't decide chargeback based only on cardmember chargeback. Airline has an opportunity to respond and AA can be simply response with that CoC incorporated by reference with OP ticket sale indicate refunds for non-refundable is only available if schedule change exceed 4 hours.
The 2011 position goes back further. It goes back to at least the 1996 Industry Letter which DoT is now referring to. Remember airlines schedules were published in paper timetables especially back in 1996. IME cancellation has always been non-operation of a flight listed on airline timetable. As such, cancellation only takes place last minute (day of departure or days prior to departure) when airline didn't operate flight due to weather/mechanical/airport closures/ATC/crew etc because it would have been impractical for airline to change and publish a new timetable without a significant lead time. A cancelled flight is one that is still on the timetable and has a status of CANCELLED showing up on flight status inquiries/airport monitors.
Cancellations don't include decisions to remove the flight from the timetable made months in advance (some airlines now have been pushing the envelope by tweaking schedule 1-2 weeks in advance). These changes don't show up on airport flight monitors or flight status inquires because they don't exist on the timetable. These flight operation decisions are schedule changes not cancellations.
DoT is going to have to revisit it's position on not having codify what a cancellation/significant schedule change is defined as.
As for chargebacks, issuers don't decide chargeback based only on cardmember chargeback. Airline has an opportunity to respond and AA can be simply response with that CoC incorporated by reference with OP ticket sale indicate refunds for non-refundable is only available if schedule change exceed 4 hours.
The simple fact is that on these facts, if you have a card issued by a US-based financial institution, you will almost certainly have your refund via chargeback in a few days.
That is likely because the merchant acquirers have tired of this and are paying out and simply debiting the AA (or other carrier) chargeback holdback. But, in the end as a consumer, it doesn't matter.
Your flight was cancelled, file a chargeback, document it properly (key to all of this) and you will almost certainly have your money soon.
Jan 21, 2021, 6:13 pm
#97
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,635
I'm not sure what the argument is about.
The simple fact is that on these facts, if you have a card issued by a US-based financial institution, you will almost certainly have your refund via chargeback in a few days.
That is likely because the merchant acquirers have tired of this and are paying out and simply debiting the AA (or other carrier) chargeback holdback. But, in the end as a consumer, it doesn't matter.
Your flight was cancelled, file a chargeback, document it properly (key to all of this) and you will almost certainly have your money soon.
The simple fact is that on these facts, if you have a card issued by a US-based financial institution, you will almost certainly have your refund via chargeback in a few days.
That is likely because the merchant acquirers have tired of this and are paying out and simply debiting the AA (or other carrier) chargeback holdback. But, in the end as a consumer, it doesn't matter.
Your flight was cancelled, file a chargeback, document it properly (key to all of this) and you will almost certainly have your money soon.
As for chargeback, before COVID, card issuers unilaterally deciding chargeback in cardmember favor without regards to CoC was not a big deal due to small numbers invovled. With COVID, I think once things settle, there is going to be some industry reckoning between airline and card networks in changing chargeback rules requiring CoC terms to be factored in. On AC thread, there are already some YMMV AMEX reports of denying chargebacks when AC provides a response.
Jan 21, 2021, 7:18 pm
#98
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
The point I'm making is the flight originally purchased being changed to a different flight months/weeks is not a cancellation as far as airline CoC is concern and also unlikely if DoT were to codify cancellation. Will have to see what DoT does.
As for chargeback, before COVID, card issuers unilaterally deciding chargeback in cardmember favor without regards to CoC was not a big deal due to small numbers invovled. With COVID, I think once things settle, there is going to be some industry reckoning between airline and card networks in changing chargeback rules requiring CoC terms to be factored in. On AC thread, there are already some YMMV AMEX reports of denying chargebacks when AC provides a response.
As for chargeback, before COVID, card issuers unilaterally deciding chargeback in cardmember favor without regards to CoC was not a big deal due to small numbers invovled. With COVID, I think once things settle, there is going to be some industry reckoning between airline and card networks in changing chargeback rules requiring CoC terms to be factored in. On AC thread, there are already some YMMV AMEX reports of denying chargebacks when AC provides a response.
Hopefully OP will just let us know when he gets his refund via credit to his card account and we can be done with this.
Jan 21, 2021, 10:19 pm
#99
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,222
DoT has opted not to define that a cancellation or a significant schedule change is. That's a factor as to why every airline is having consumer complaints about refund these days.
The 2011 position goes back further. It goes back to at least the 1996 Industry Letter which DoT is now referring to. Remember airlines schedules were published in paper timetables especially back in 1996. IME cancellation has always been non-operation of a flight listed on airline timetable. As such, cancellation only takes place last minute (day of departure or days prior to departure) when airline didn't operate flight due to weather/mechanical/airport closures/ATC/crew etc because it would have been impractical for airline to change and publish a new timetable without a significant lead time. A cancelled flight is one that is still on the timetable and has a status of CANCELLED showing up on flight status inquiries/airport monitors.
Cancellations don't include decisions to remove the flight from the timetable made months in advance (some airlines now have been pushing the envelope by tweaking schedule 1-2 weeks in advance). These changes don't show up on airport flight monitors or flight status inquires because they don't exist on the timetable. These flight operation decisions are schedule changes not cancellations.
DoT is going to have to revisit it's position on not having codify what a cancellation/significant schedule change is defined as.
As for chargebacks, issuers don't decide chargeback based only on cardmember chargeback. Airline has an opportunity to respond and AA can be simply response with that CoC incorporated by reference with OP ticket sale indicate refunds for non-refundable is only available if schedule change exceed 4 hours.
The 2011 position goes back further. It goes back to at least the 1996 Industry Letter which DoT is now referring to. Remember airlines schedules were published in paper timetables especially back in 1996. IME cancellation has always been non-operation of a flight listed on airline timetable. As such, cancellation only takes place last minute (day of departure or days prior to departure) when airline didn't operate flight due to weather/mechanical/airport closures/ATC/crew etc because it would have been impractical for airline to change and publish a new timetable without a significant lead time. A cancelled flight is one that is still on the timetable and has a status of CANCELLED showing up on flight status inquiries/airport monitors.
Cancellations don't include decisions to remove the flight from the timetable made months in advance (some airlines now have been pushing the envelope by tweaking schedule 1-2 weeks in advance). These changes don't show up on airport flight monitors or flight status inquires because they don't exist on the timetable. These flight operation decisions are schedule changes not cancellations.
DoT is going to have to revisit it's position on not having codify what a cancellation/significant schedule change is defined as.
As for chargebacks, issuers don't decide chargeback based only on cardmember chargeback. Airline has an opportunity to respond and AA can be simply response with that CoC incorporated by reference with OP ticket sale indicate refunds for non-refundable is only available if schedule change exceed 4 hours.
Jan 21, 2021, 10:33 pm
#100
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: NYC/PHX
Programs: IATA, Sabre, AvgeekAgent
Posts: 1,958
Yes. Flight time change of 4+ hours, change from nonstop to connection, change of operating carrier (incuding mainline to Eagle) or termination/suspension of service all qualify for refunds.
Jan 21, 2021, 10:49 pm
#101
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23,021
So I'm curious -- if a passenger is booked on a nonstop flight, but that is "cancelled" and changed to a connection, but still departs/arrives within the 4 hour window, is the passenger entitled to a refund? It would seem pretty clear to me that the original nonstop flight was cancelled by any normal definition. (I'm assuming this scenario is not explicitly addressed in the CoC, which would of course make it moot.)
Travel agencies can refund a non-refundable ticket(s) when there has been a Delta schedule change for tickets issued on/after July 30, 2020, for travel that follows the guidelines of the Domestic Contract of Carriage or for tickets issue on/after August 17, 2020, for travel that follows the guidelines of the Canadian and International Contracts of Carriage, if one or more of the following apply:
- A delay of 120 minutes or more
- There is a change to an itinerary resulting in no comparable schedule being available within 120 minutes
- A change in the routing of a scheduled Delta flight which adds one or more stops to the original itinerary.
- A change in equipment from DL mainline to DL Connections carrier
- Any change that causes a misconnect
Last edited by xliioper; Jan 22, 2021 at 3:36 am
Jan 22, 2021, 9:53 am
#102
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,528
Combining credit wallet from different accounts?
Since the credit wallet thread is inaccessible, I'll ask here.
Originally I booked a flight pre-COVID (paid credit card) and had to cancel due to COVID. I opted (stupidly) for the extra 20% credit or whatever it was. Got an email voucher (doesn't show up in wallet).
Last year attempted to rebook flights once more (for this year), and the flight prices had dropped, so I ended up using all but $50 of the voucher, but booked two tickets for myself and SO.
Had to cancel those (thank you COVID some more). AA proactively issued a credit to *each* account (which now shows in the wallet for each account).
Sooo, my ultimate question:
If I book another flight for just myself, can I use the wallet credit from both accounts? Or have I now screwed myself and end up with a $50 voucher balance, along with a $200 wallet credit and just lose the remaining $200 wallet credit on other account?
Originally I booked a flight pre-COVID (paid credit card) and had to cancel due to COVID. I opted (stupidly) for the extra 20% credit or whatever it was. Got an email voucher (doesn't show up in wallet).
Last year attempted to rebook flights once more (for this year), and the flight prices had dropped, so I ended up using all but $50 of the voucher, but booked two tickets for myself and SO.
Had to cancel those (thank you COVID some more). AA proactively issued a credit to *each* account (which now shows in the wallet for each account).
Sooo, my ultimate question:
If I book another flight for just myself, can I use the wallet credit from both accounts? Or have I now screwed myself and end up with a $50 voucher balance, along with a $200 wallet credit and just lose the remaining $200 wallet credit on other account?
Jan 22, 2021, 11:57 am
#103
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,635
Your experience seems to be different than the vast majority of those who have experienced this with US-issued cards. Perhaps you should consider switching card issuers.
Hopefully OP will just let us know when he gets his refund via credit to his card account and we can be done with this.
Hopefully OP will just let us know when he gets his refund via credit to his card account and we can be done with this.
So I'm curious -- if a passenger is booked on a nonstop flight, but that is "cancelled" and changed to a connection, but still departs/arrives within the 4 hour window, is the passenger entitled to a refund? It would seem pretty clear to me that the original nonstop flight was cancelled by any normal definition. (I'm assuming this scenario is not explicitly addressed in the CoC, which would of course make it moot.)
Jan 23, 2021, 9:13 am
#104
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fuerteventura
Posts: 74
Flight credit question if anyone can help?
Purchased original ticket on 30th March 2020. I cancelled it on 7th July 2020 and the value of the ticket was protected as 'flight credit'. I used this credit to rebook a ticket on 14th August 2020 for travel in April 2021.
It now looks as if I will be unable to do this journey. Can I cancel again for flight credit valid until end of 2021 or not? I am not sure if what I did constitutes 1 free change or whether its treated as a new ticket?
Purchased original ticket on 30th March 2020. I cancelled it on 7th July 2020 and the value of the ticket was protected as 'flight credit'. I used this credit to rebook a ticket on 14th August 2020 for travel in April 2021.
It now looks as if I will be unable to do this journey. Can I cancel again for flight credit valid until end of 2021 or not? I am not sure if what I did constitutes 1 free change or whether its treated as a new ticket?
Jan 23, 2021, 11:55 am
#105
Used to be 'Travelergcp'
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Orleans
Programs: AA Plat, Marriott Gold, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 2,826
AA dropped change fees, so if you cancel, you’ll be able to reuse the value towards a new ticket without penalty, up to its original validity date or whatever AA decides to extend it to, most likely 12/31/21. Once you cancel, it’s just a credit from an unused ticket. All changes are free now, but you’ll have to pay the fare difference, if any.
Calling or Twitter DM is going to get you the most authoritative answer.
Calling or Twitter DM is going to get you the most authoritative answer.