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Against the rules to give up your FC seat?

Against the rules to give up your FC seat?

Old Feb 14, 20, 9:37 am
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by deac83 View Post
AA has told me in the past, when seats have been changed that I'm not guaranteed a specific seat on a plane. AA can change my seat at their convenience.

If I buy a J ticket and get on the plane I'm traveling on the J ticket and have not given it to someone because I swap seats with them. I'd think the CoC is addressing that I can't buy a ticket and just give it to someone else to fly in my place.

Like others I've swapped F and Y seats with my wife as well. Usually the FA thinks it's great. Doesn't make it the rule or allowed but certainly shows in practice the rule (if it exists) is rarely enforced.
The bolded part 100% makes sense. That IS a security concern if the person flying is different than the person booking. The person flying hasn't been vetted at all. That's not what happened here. There is no security concern when two people switch seats. If there was the Southwest is the least secure airline ever (no assigned seats). How would they ever survive?
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Old Feb 14, 20, 10:01 am
  #77  
 
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I think if they had done the switch at the gate there would be no issue. I did this recently (although not a FC seat), we gave our seats to an elderly couple that was not seated together and the wife could barely walk as they were trying to preboard and I overheard the issues I went up to the gate and offered our two together, they switched us with no issues.
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Old Feb 14, 20, 11:18 am
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by AggieNzona View Post
I think if they had done the switch at the gate there would be no issue. I did this recently (although not a FC seat), we gave our seats to an elderly couple that was not seated together and the wife could barely walk as they were trying to preboard and I overheard the issues I went up to the gate and offered our two together, they switched us with no issues.
That's great but completely not applicable here - Gate Agent would have no way to swap seat assignments across cabins without overriding normal procedures.
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Old Feb 14, 20, 12:20 pm
  #79  
 
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Originally Posted by deac83 View Post
AA has told me in the past, when seats have been changed that I'm not guaranteed a specific seat on a plane. AA can change my seat at their convenience.

If I buy a J ticket and get on the plane I'm traveling on the J ticket and have not given it to someone because I swap seats with them. I'd think the CoC is addressing that I can't buy a ticket and just give it to someone else to fly in my place.
I'd take that one step further--your ticket is a contract to transport you from origin to destination. How you're routed and what seat (or even what cabin) you're seated in is entirely at the airline's discretion--usually it happens the way you ticketed it, but sometimes it does not. This is why there's rarely a real CoC issue in most of the complaints against airlines--if they fulfilled the contract to transport you within the very broad allowances of the CoC, that's that. All the window-dressing around transporting you is "nice, but not necessary".

Originally Posted by deac83 View Post
Like others I've swapped F and Y seats with my wife as well. Usually the FA thinks it's great. Doesn't make it the rule or allowed but certainly shows in practice the rule (if it exists) is rarely enforced.
The only thing I'm certain of is that 'interfering with' a crew member's performance of duties carries stiff penalties and the FAA interprets it pretty broadly. Individual airline policies differ, and individual crewmembers' interpretations of those policies may differ widely...

Have many of us done exactly what Borden's CEO (allegedly) got into a fracas with a FA over (trading seats between cabins)? Certainly. Does it matter in the face of a crewmember who tells you you can't do it? No. It doesn't matter "why" or if they seem "unreasonable" (or mean, or whatever), or if you've done this before without any problem--the time to comply is right then and there. Arguing is engaging in a losing battle that may see you booted off the flight, fined, and/or arrested (I have seen this happen; I'm sure many here have also).

You can note the day, time, cabin, flight number, and crewmember name and submit your complaint after the fact. That's about it. And that's pretty much what the people involved in this situation (eventually) did.

I think the vast majority of cabin crew are quite professional and reasonable in reading situations and reacting appropriately; that's what's reflected in most of our retelling of our own experiences with swapping seats. We don't really have all the facts here, so other than the really poor response from AA CS to the CEO who wrote in about it, I'm not sure that there isn't plenty of blame to go around...

cheers and happy travels!
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Old Feb 14, 20, 12:48 pm
  #80  
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Originally Posted by AAir_head View Post
I'd take that one step further--your ticket is a contract to transport you from origin to destination. How you're routed and what seat (or even what cabin) you're seated in is entirely at the airline's discretion--usually it happens the way you ticketed it, but sometimes it does not. This is why there's rarely a real CoC issue in most of the complaints against airlines--if they fulfilled the contract to transport you within the very broad allowances of the CoC, that's that. All the window-dressing around transporting you is "nice, but not necessary".



The only thing I'm certain of is that 'interfering with' a crew member's performance of duties carries stiff penalties and the FAA interprets it pretty broadly. Individual airline policies differ, and individual crewmembers' interpretations of those policies may differ widely...

Have many of us done exactly what Borden's CEO (allegedly) got into a fracas with a FA over (trading seats between cabins)? Certainly. Does it matter in the face of a crewmember who tells you you can't do it? No. It doesn't matter "why" or if they seem "unreasonable" (or mean, or whatever), or if you've done this before without any problem--the time to comply is right then and there. Arguing is engaging in a losing battle that may see you booted off the flight, fined, and/or arrested (I have seen this happen; I'm sure many here have also).

You can note the day, time, cabin, flight number, and crewmember name and submit your complaint after the fact. That's about it. And that's pretty much what the people involved in this situation (eventually) did.

I think the vast majority of cabin crew are quite professional and reasonable in reading situations and reacting appropriately; that's what's reflected in most of our retelling of our own experiences with swapping seats. We don't really have all the facts here, so other than the really poor response from AA CS to the CEO who wrote in about it, I'm not sure that there isn't plenty of blame to go around...

cheers and happy travels!
Blame to go around, for a non published policy preventing people from changing seats?? I blame AA and nobody else
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Old Feb 14, 20, 1:00 pm
  #81  
 
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Blame to go around, for a non published policy preventing people from changing seats?? I blame AA and nobody else
We don't really have all the facts--just one side, reported third-hand by the OP. So yeah, it's possible the "non published policy" may have nothing to do with this or really only be peripheral to the incident.

If you want to shoot from the hip and "blame AA and nobody else", go ahead. They may even be guilty.

But they may not be.

Cheers!

Last edited by AAir_head; Feb 15, 20 at 6:23 am
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Old Feb 14, 20, 1:53 pm
  #82  
 
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Originally Posted by AAir_head View Post
We don't really have all the facts--just one side, reported thrid-hand by the OP. So yeah, it's possible the "non published policy" may have nothing to do with this or really only be peripheral to the incident.

If you want to shoot from the hip and "blame AA and nobody else", go ahead. They may even be guilty.

But they may not be.

Cheers!
Nobody has produced a snippet from the COC stating that this is forbidden. Until that happens, it's a mismanagement issue in my mind because the onus of proof is in the positive side, not the negative

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Old Feb 14, 20, 3:26 pm
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
I

I cannot see how it is any different to, what I do not see is likey to be disputed, that you cant just give your ticket to another person
I frequently agree with your overly rule based responses, because I also believe in the idea of at least considering the rules. But I think you are wrong on this one. I see a BIG difference between swapping tickets and swapping seats. The ticket is a license for a seat on the plane, in a certain class of service. I don't see ANY valid concern (revenue or security or customer service) to prohibit a "permanent" seat swap (the answer is different if people want to switch in the middle of a flight).
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Old Feb 14, 20, 3:40 pm
  #84  
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Why would the FA prevent coach passengers from using the FC lavs, except on an inbound flight to the US (per regulation)?
Can you point to an AA rule that says otherwise?
On the Borden news. Borden is a $1 Billion Company.......unfortunately, it had been a $2 Billion Company 50 years ago, and that was in 1970 dollars
There is no SECURITY reason that prevents people from trading seats before the flight. The Feds have determined that moving between cabins is a security issue on flights from other countries into the US, and restricts people to using lavs in their own cabins. My view on this is it is nonsense. In any case, I cannot see why AA cares about people using a someone else's seat for the entire flight, if it is OK with the other person.
If trading for a FC seat so that a passenger from coach sits in the FC cabin is a security issue, surely it's more of a security issue for someone from coach to come up closer to the cockpit and sit or stand behind a closed and locked door.
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Old Feb 14, 20, 3:55 pm
  #85  
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Originally Posted by sbrower View Post
I frequently agree with your overly rule based responses, because I also believe in the idea of at least considering the rules. But I think you are wrong on this one. I see a BIG difference between swapping tickets and swapping seats. The ticket is a license for a seat on the plane, in a certain class of service. I don't see ANY valid concern (revenue or security or customer service) to prohibit a "permanent" seat swap (the answer is different if people want to switch in the middle of a flight).
No the ticket is a contract for carriage where the airline will transport the named passenger in the class of service from origin to destination - I cannot see how this contract changes once onboard

If one was puchasing a seat , then there would be no issue with giving a ticket to another person
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Old Feb 14, 20, 11:30 pm
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
No the ticket is a contract for carriage where the airline will transport the named passenger in the class of service from origin to destination - I cannot see how this contract changes once onboard

If one was puchasing a seat , then there would be no issue with giving a ticket to another person
Everything is negotiable with proper skills and experience.
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Old Feb 15, 20, 12:29 am
  #87  
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Originally Posted by jcf27 View Post
Everything is negotiable with proper skills and experience.
But just going and awapping seats would not be this
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Old Feb 15, 20, 1:11 am
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
But just going and awapping seats would not be this
Actually yes. Because everyone here has done it and this is the first reported incident of it. So clearly, assuming this is a rule, it is entirely negotiable.

Also, likely posted this 6 times now, but where is this rule written ? Someone HAS to be able to produce it?
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Old Feb 15, 20, 3:19 am
  #89  
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Sounds bogus to me.

Can't remember anything about something like this, neither written in the AOSSP, nor in the Civil Aviation Security-subcharters of 49 CFR.
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Old Feb 15, 20, 3:39 am
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Originally Posted by Antarius View Post
Actually yes. Because everyone here has done it and this is the first reported incident of it. So clearly, assuming this is a rule, it is entirely negotiable.

Also, likely posted this 6 times now, but where is this rule written ? Someone HAS to be able to produce it?
Why must the rule be customer-facing/customer-available? Nothing in the COC tells the customer that they should expect to change their ticketed class of service. Therefore, no customer should complain if they are told they cannot. If John Jacobs buys a first class ticket with his name as the ticketed passenger, then John Jacobs should be sitting in first class. If Sally Silva buys an economy ticket with her name as the ticketed passenger, then Sally Silva should be sitting in economy. That is the contract you agreed to - a seat in a particular class of service.

The reason I would think it could be deemed a security issue is it might seem a tad odd for someone to buy a seat in a certain cabin and give it away. It isn’t completely illogical to question if a swap might be happening for some nefarious reason, which is probably why AA would want it sanctioned by an FA or GA.

I don’t think AA’s response is inappropriate in insisting that the seat swap should not have taken place...CEO of a billion dollar company or not. You think his company doesn’t have policies related to customers that he would expect his employees to adhere to?

Perhaps the issue with the “rudeness” should have garnered some miles, but it is often challenging to vet that. I have been on many a flight to watch an interaction with a FA attendant go sour, with the passenger being the escalating party, even though said passenger would vehemently claim otherwise. I have also seen FAs be classified as “rude” when they were stern in their adherence to policy.

It isn’t a win-win situation. If AA has this policy, customer-available or not, it should be consistently applied. In fact, the only reason for the back and forth in this thread appears to be that it hasn’t been. Everyone here is up in arms simply because 1) they have gotten away with it in the past and 2) want to continue to get away with it in the future.
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