Originally Posted by DMPHL
(Post 31800141)
IP addresses, mileage redemptions, etc.
Not to mention getting on the phone with their partners at Citi to ask what individuals have multiple credit card accounts open, and seeing what AAdvantage accounts those link to. I can't imagine it's very difficult at all. |
Originally Posted by DMPHL
(Post 31800141)
Not to mention getting on the phone with their partners at Citi to ask what individuals have multiple credit card accounts open, and seeing what AAdvantage accounts those link to.
I can't imagine it's very difficult at all. |
Originally Posted by aradisc
(Post 31800237)
One might presume that such a database query is easy. But years of evidence suggest that Citi's IT is either too incompetent to do this or they've been instructed to look the other way. Or both.
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Citi may have decided that it doesn't care, but that doesn't mean AA has decided it doesn't care (or hasn't changed its priorities) or that Citi wouldn't cooperate with AA if asked.
Multiple account openers may be fine. Or not. Hard to say based on general principles. |
Originally Posted by Global321
(Post 31800265)
I think it is safe to assume Citi has performed an ROI on the offers - and those that game the system - and decided the return is good enough to do nothing about it.
I imagine that was also the sentiment at Wells Fargo. Until it wasn't. Slightly different nuance, but very similar. Creating fraudulent accounts for profit and execs/others turning a blind-eye didn't end so well there. I'm not a saint, by any stretch, and happily salute the lines of grey. That said, the greed and arrogance on the other thread appalls me. Posters bragging -- BRAGGING - about creating multiple AA Frequent Flyer accounts, with slightly different names (i.e., "Bob", "Bobby", "Robbie", "Robert") using new email addresses, to get credit card sign-up mile bonuses. Bragging about holding 3-10 FF accounts at anytime, and turning some % of them over every 35-65 days for new sign up bonuses because Citi will approve them at this frequency. Bragging about opening a received offer in two different browsers at the same time, and somehow by doing this, able to get twice the bonus miles. And stating they're going to keep right on doing it until AA or Citi cuts them off. The math is easy on this. With 5 accounts - turning even every two months - with say 50K miles signup -- pretty nifty little payoff of 1.5M miles per year. Times how many people. It's only a matter of time before this story makes it's way out of forums and blogs to mainstream media. And AA will want to clean it up as much as possible before then. This particular Gravy Train is all but over. In my humble opinion. |
I guess this is what happens when executives clamor for sales in an already heavily saturated, hyper mature industry. Citicorp in order to make the numbers freely takes on new cardholders that are clearly churning credit cards for miles. The stats look good and everyone is happy, including the people flying around in International J class without spending a dime. Everyone of course but the airline.
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Originally Posted by aradisc
(Post 31800237)
One might presume that such a database query is easy.
But years of evidence suggest that Citi's IT is either too incompetent to do this or they've been instructed to look the other way. Or both. I'd blame, instead, the idiots in management. |
Originally Posted by newyorkgeorge
(Post 31800471)
I guess this is what happens when executives clamor for sales in an already heavily saturated, hyper mature industry. Citicorp in order to make the numbers freely takes on new cardholders that are clearly churning credit cards for miles. The stats look good and everyone is happy, including the people flying around in International J class without spending a dime. Everyone of course but the airline.
Oh yeah, they fixed that... ;) https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...er-thread.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...iscussion.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...nvenience.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...nnections.html |
Don't misunderstand my question - it is an honest one.
Who loses when these guys create multiple accounts? Don't the cc companies buy those miles? And doesn't that mean AA expects them to be used? So AA got paid, the cc company clearly seems happy, so who loses? Again, I hope every one of them loses their miles. The rules are the rules. Better for us rule followers. I am just trying to understand who, if anyone, is out something; besides the scammers when their accounts are shut down. I don't know the behind the scenes revenue story. |
Originally Posted by newyorkgeorge
(Post 31800471)
I... Everyone of course but the airline.
They sold the miles to citi and probably profited the most out of this.. |
Originally Posted by wiivile
(Post 31800020)
There's a difference between getting 30 AA cards from 1) mailers in your own name, 2) using other (real) people's mailers, and 3) creating AA accounts for non-existent people to get more mailers. I would have drawn the line at using mailers not addressed to me. I'm happy to get 30 AA cards as long as the mailers were in my own name. And Citi/AA can't really do anything about that aside from tightening up approvals and/or bonus eligibility going forward.
But using mailers not addressed to me is going too far, even if it's a real mailer to a real person, because they're technically non-transferrable (whether given to you by a relative or obtained by dumpster diving). Making AA accounts to generate mailers to fake people is definitely going too far and is borderline fraudulent. Using other people's legitimate mailers is not fraudulent but simply a violation of the non-transferable terms. If people were using variations of their own real names (nickname/initials/middle name/etc.), they would need to use their real social security number so the accounts would be linked at the bank even if AA doesn't ask for a social security number when one opens a new FF account. With Citi's cooperation, it would be easy to find the duplicate FF accounts if Citi provides a list of all credit card numbers (perhaps over some low threshold to allow for legitimate multiple credit cards to be linked to a single FF account) associated with a single social security number. To the extent that identity theft or fraud were committed, this would be criminal and not just a matter of violating FF program rules. |
Originally Posted by Global321
(Post 31800704)
Don't misunderstand my question - it is an honest one.
Who loses when these guys create multiple accounts? Don't the cc companies buy those miles? And doesn't that mean AA expects them to be used? I am just trying to understand who, if anyone, is out something; besides the scammers when their accounts are shut down. I don't know the behind the scenes revenue story. And, yes, they may have decided that it was also not great for the AAdvantage program if people who spend money to fly the airline frequently can't redeem their miles because of churners. And don't forget, it also decreases the value proposition for legitimate credit card customers. If regular customers aren't getting value from their Citi or Barclays cards because they can't use their miles, that harms those products in the future. |
Yeah, count me as someone who doesn’t *really* understand what has been going on, but I haven’t come across that “other thread.”
What is this churning doing to people’s credit scores?! |
Originally Posted by azepine00
(Post 31800789)
Huh?
They sold the miles to citi and probably profited the most out of this.. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 31800794)
How do you open a credit card in a fake name?
Until someone at Citi or AA seems to have decided it wasn't okay anymore. |
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