Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > American Airlines | AAdvantage
Reload this Page >

Aircraft swap and agent refuse to cancel and refund

Aircraft swap and agent refuse to cancel and refund

Old Nov 20, 2019, 9:39 am
  #16  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: AA Executive Platinum/Million Miler, Marriott Titanium Elite-Lifetime, Hilton Gold
Posts: 3,365
Originally Posted by noobynoob
It was mentioned in my post, and GateH15 noted the domestic leg change from 737 to 321 qualified so I don't think I could give the agent the benefit of a doubt in this case.
I don't see it in your original post. Are you saying it was a 737 to 321 swap?

Aircraft "swaps" do not qualify, only equipment changes. AA doesn't sell flights telling you which specific tail number will operate any given flight. For example, changing from one A321 to another is a "swap". Changing from an A321 to a 737 is a "substitution of equipment". What specifically happened here? It's really hard to help you without clear specifics up front.
USFlyerUS is online now  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 9:44 am
  #17  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by olouie
Send them a twitter message with the link to the international rules. That team usually is great.

But if I am reading the rules right Canada is an exception and they dont apply.

Thank you, I sent a message on twitter (and email) so hopefully this will be dealt with.

The document makes numerous references to Canada and modifies certain provisions for Canada, so Canada is part of the scope of this document. I didn't see any exception or modification for Canada (or any other country) in the provision I raised - why do you think this provision does not apply to Canada?
noobynoob is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 9:45 am
  #18  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Austin, TX
Programs: BAEC Gold, HHonors Diamond, Marriott Titanium, UA Gold (*G), DL Silver, Makers Mark Ambassador
Posts: 4,714
Originally Posted by USFlyerUS
I don't see it in your original post. Are you saying it was a 737 to 321 swap?

Aircraft "swaps" do not qualify, only equipment changes. AA doesn't sell flights telling you which specific tail number will operate any given flight. For example, changing from one A321 to another is a "swap". Changing from an A321 to a 737 is a "substitution of equipment". What specifically happened here? It's really hard to help you without clear specifics up front.
The 737 to A321 swap was mentioned by another poster in the thread. The OP hasn't mentioned what his exact swap was.
wakesetter93 is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 9:47 am
  #19  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by USFlyerUS
I don't see it in your original post. Are you saying it was a 737 to 321 swap?

Aircraft "swaps" do not qualify, only equipment changes. AA doesn't sell flights telling you which specific tail number will operate any given flight. For example, changing from one A321 to another is a "swap". Changing from an A321 to a 737 is a "substitution of equipment". What specifically happened here? It's really hard to help you without clear specifics up front.
Originally Posted by noobynoob
Is this relevant? The condition states "not acceptable to the passenger" which is entirely subjective at the opinion of the passenger, so even if it is from, say 320 to 737, it should presumably qualify if it is not acceptable to the passenger (it is not what AA deems to be acceptable to the passenger).

For example, AA website says "Domestic live TV is available on all A320 and select A319, A321 and 737 aircraft with high-speed Wi-Fi", so if it changed from 320 to 319, 321 or 737, you have the risk of not having high-speed wifi. Or say oasis (321, 737) vs non-oasis.
See above. I appreciate that an aircraft change from a A320 to another A320 does not qualify. In this case it was from a A320 to a non-A320.
noobynoob is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 10:16 am
  #20  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: DCA, lived MCI, SEA/PDX,BUF (born/raised)
Programs: Marriott (Silver/Gold), IHG, Carlson, Best Western, Choice( Gold), AS (MVP), WN, UA
Posts: 8,882
I think airline swap might not be allowed if it was just a plane change or change to a slightly different model.

i think the bigger aircraft change results in a reduction of seats due to plane change or they had family together and got broken up in aircraft change.

Other issues in small aircraft going from a jet to a prop plane like the Q400 which crashed over buffalo.

I wonder they remove these rules with MAx being approves to fly again and PAX dont want to fly on that.
djp98374 is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 12:56 pm
  #21  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: AA Executive Platinum/Million Miler, Marriott Titanium Elite-Lifetime, Hilton Gold
Posts: 3,365
Originally Posted by noobynoob
See above. I appreciate that an aircraft change from a A320 to another A320 does not qualify. In this case it was from a A320 to a non-A320.
But you mention non-OASIS'd to OASIS'd, so I didn't get the sense you appreciated that swapping from a non-OASIS'd 738 to an OASIS'd 738 would not be eligible for a refund. Both are 738s.

Was it a 320 to a 319 or 321? Or an A320 to a 738, E90, E75, CR9, CR7, CRJ, etc.?
USFlyerUS is online now  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 1:12 pm
  #22  
formerly Sleepy_Sentry
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 624
The Contract of Carriage in effect when you booked the ticket are the terms that bind both you and AA. AA can't change them as they please. The fact that "the system" won't allow a refund isn't your problem, either.

I would file a credit card dispute and include the original contract of carriage as proof. Don't waste your time with AA.
cmd320 likes this.
danielflyer is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 1:18 pm
  #23  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 123
How can one tell there is an equipment substitution when the aircraft type did not change (say 737-8 to another 737-8) - do they email passengers about things of this nature? What information do you use before the flight (or at the time of booking) to tell which ones have Oasis or not?
noobynoob is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 2:29 pm
  #24  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Madison WI
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT - 2.9MM, Lifetime AC, HHonors Gold, Marriott Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Hertz Precs Crcl
Posts: 2,241
Originally Posted by noobynoob
I received an email for one of my upcoming flights with AA that noted an aircraft swap. After reading that AA allows full refunds when there is an aircraft swap (that is not acceptable to the passenger) per their contract of carriage, I called AA to request a refund. For reference:

https://www.aa.com/i18n/Tariffs/AA1.html

(C)SCHEDULE CHANGE IN THE EVENT, AFTER TICKET ISSUANCE, SCHEDULE CHANGES ARE MADE BY AA THAT:
  • (I)AFFECT A PASSENGER'S DEPARTURE AND/OR ARRIVAL BY 2 OR MORE HOURS;
  • (II) RESULT IN THE ADDITION OF AN INTERMEDIATE STOP ON THE PASSENGER'S ITINERARY;
  • (III) RESULT IN A SUBSTITUTION OF EQUIPMENT NOT ACCEPTABLE TO THE PASSENGER; OR
  • (IV) IF A CANCELLATION OR A CHANGE IN EITHER AIR OR TOUR ITINERARY IS INITIATED EITHER BY AA OR ITS TOUR OPERATORS WHICH IS UNACCEPTABLE TO THE PASSENGER, THE PASSENGER WILL HAVE THE OPTION OF CANCELLING WITHOUT PENALTY, OR REROUTING ON DIFFERENT FLIGHTS TO/FROM THE SAME OR DIFFERENT DESTINATION.HOWEVER, THE PASSENGER MUST PAY ANY ADDITIONAL AMOUNTS RESULTING FROM THE REROUTING.

However, two people on the phone said they don't see this in their conditions of carriage and referred to this (https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-ser...f-carriage.jsp, which seems to have been updated this week), and suggested I contact Customer Relations. Customer Relations suggested I contact the call centre......

1. Does the above still apply, or does the recent change affect this provision?
2. Does "cancelling without penalty" equate to a full refund?

Ticket is from Canada to a US city with a connection (CAN-US1-US2destination), so it is international (although the aircraft swap was on the domestic portion (US1-US2) - not sure if this matters.

Thank you in advance.
As you found out, the link you quoted (also found in the Wiki) still grabs that full tariff from AA.COM. However I could not coax it out of their search engine no matter what I tried. I'd print the whole thing, date stamped, before they manage to delete it. The updated sections the you can search out do have language that seems to indicate equipment swaps may happen and no longer reference and rights you may have. It really does not look like a binding tariff to me, but I'm no lawyer.

Sometimes we have to make adjustments to our operation, and between the time you book and the day you depart, there may be changes to:
  1. The type of plane you're flying on
  2. Your seat
  3. The airline that operates your flight
  4. The number of stopovers or stopover cities
  5. Departure or arrival times
When there are changes that affect your trip, we'll try to contact you in advance and move you to a similar seat, though we can't make any guarantees."
Madison Guy is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 2:38 pm
  #25  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New York, NY
Programs: AA ExPl, DL PM, UA Silver, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, probably some others
Posts: 4,208
Originally Posted by Sleepy_Sentry
The Contract of Carriage in effect when you booked the ticket are the terms that bind both you and AA. AA can't change them as they please. The fact that "the system" won't allow a refund isn't your problem, either.

I would file a credit card dispute and include the original contract of carriage as proof. Don't waste your time with AA.
Is there an easy way for OP to find the original contract of carriage?
steveholt is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 4:29 pm
  #26  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Madison WI
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT - 2.9MM, Lifetime AC, HHonors Gold, Marriott Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Hertz Precs Crcl
Posts: 2,241
Originally Posted by steveholt
Is there an easy way for OP to find the original contract of carriage?
Not from AA. But the pre-11/15/2019 version is still on AA.COM, and the OP already listed it.
Madison Guy is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 5:09 pm
  #27  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 123
So Customer Relations finally confirmed I can request a full refund. I have cancelled the ticket and it remains to be seen when the refund will be posted (they said it can take up to 10 business days). However, I cannot confirm if the International General Rules (AA1) apply to tickets purchased post Nov 15, 2019, seeing the Conditions of Carriage on their website note "Updated November 15, 2019". It is possible they agreed to issue a refund in my case because I bought the ticket prior to this change.

One positive change in the post 11/15/2019 version may be that you can request a refund when there is a schedule change of 61 minutes or more (in the linked International General Rules it required 2 or more hours).

Thank you everyone!

Last edited by noobynoob; Nov 20, 2019 at 5:09 pm Reason: grammar
noobynoob is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 5:12 pm
  #28  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 12,225
Good job nooby, you showed them how it's done...
nk15 is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 6:07 pm
  #29  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,355
I'm a little confused and may just have missed it -- is this actually an international trip or not? The rules do appear to be different, with international allowing refund on aircraft type change and domestic not. And from what I could see in the Wayback Machine (archive.org), that particular item in the domestic rules didn't change; was the same even last January (before the 2nd MAX crash and grounding).

So I don't think they are explicitly *changing* the contract to force people to fly the MAX, but AA has not stated that they will allow changes off of the 737-MAX as United and Southwest have, and indeed even after the crashes and initial groundings AA was reported to have played hardball and refuse even rebooking. I believe the MAX can and will eventually be made safe, but I and my family will not be on one until it has a proven track record for some time, and that means I'm going to avoid booking airlines like AA that are likely to make that difficult.
jmastron is offline  
Old Nov 20, 2019, 7:25 pm
  #30  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by jmastron
I'm a little confused and may just have missed it -- is this actually an international trip or not? The rules do appear to be different, with international allowing refund on aircraft type change and domestic not. And from what I could see in the Wayback Machine (archive.org), that particular item in the domestic rules didn't change; was the same even last January (before the 2nd MAX crash and grounding).

So I don't think they are explicitly *changing* the contract to force people to fly the MAX, but AA has not stated that they will allow changes off of the 737-MAX as United and Southwest have, and indeed even after the crashes and initial groundings AA was reported to have played hardball and refuse even rebooking. I believe the MAX can and will eventually be made safe, but I and my family will not be on one until it has a proven track record for some time, and that means I'm going to avoid booking airlines like AA that are likely to make that difficult.
Some people seem think flights to and from Canada are domestic flights?? Do AA use a different definition of "international"? Another poster noted where the domestic leg of an itinerary to an international destination had an aircraft equipment substitution, he was able to request a full refund.

Seeing the rules are referred to as the "International General Rules", presumably there is a different set of rules that apply to domestic flights (which I do not have access to, so I cannot comment on whether those rules do or ever did allow a refund in this kind of situations). But I agree, if AA can swap an aircraft to a 737-MAX with no option for those who do not want to fly the MAX, perhaps it is best avoided until it is proven safe.
noobynoob is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.