Forced Ticket Change due to Agents Misunderstanding Visa
Oct 7, 2019, 10:03 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 14
Forced Ticket Change due to Agents Misunderstanding Visa
My friend (Chinese passport) was flying from JFK to Argentina on a tourist visa. Upon checking in, he was denied boarding pass because his visa expiration date (12OCT) is before the return flight (19OCT). However, based on his research, one is only required to enter but not necessarily depart Argentina before the expiration. Tourists visa is valid for 90 days after entry. Agents and supervisors at JFK claimed he had to return before expiration and forced him to change his return trip to 12OCT, costing him over $2000 for a Y fare + change fee. He was also told by agents that he could reverse the ticket change and have the amount refunded if he turned out to be correct.
When entering Argentina, Immigration officer confirmed his side of the story and AA agents were talking nonsense.
Question: How can he change the return flight back to original date without any charge, and get the $2000 refunded? Call Reservations? Twitter?
Any suggestion appreciated!
When entering Argentina, Immigration officer confirmed his side of the story and AA agents were talking nonsense.
Question: How can he change the return flight back to original date without any charge, and get the $2000 refunded? Call Reservations? Twitter?
Any suggestion appreciated!
Oct 7, 2019, 10:40 am
#2
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So just to confirm, he was going to intentionally overstay his tourist visa, correct?
If that's the case, it's likely that even if Timatic wasn't throwing a fit, they may be trying to avoid a compliance issue with applicable laws on exit (see here, particularly the note at the bottom of the content area) and even though you can pay a fine and renew while already in Argentina, it is supposed to be valid for the length of the stay (otherwise it can fall the carrier to return the traveler if they are denied entry by immigration).
The most authoritative way to confirm the validity of your interpretation would be with written correspondence from the Argentinian consulate. embassy, or local immigration office for your friend in Argentina. AA won't accept the verbal word of an immigration agent at EZE. Once you have that, then you can reach out to AA but given that it has to be reviewed, Twitter isn't likely the best place channel to make that happen.
If that's the case, it's likely that even if Timatic wasn't throwing a fit, they may be trying to avoid a compliance issue with applicable laws on exit (see here, particularly the note at the bottom of the content area) and even though you can pay a fine and renew while already in Argentina, it is supposed to be valid for the length of the stay (otherwise it can fall the carrier to return the traveler if they are denied entry by immigration).
The most authoritative way to confirm the validity of your interpretation would be with written correspondence from the Argentinian consulate. embassy, or local immigration office for your friend in Argentina. AA won't accept the verbal word of an immigration agent at EZE. Once you have that, then you can reach out to AA but given that it has to be reviewed, Twitter isn't likely the best place channel to make that happen.
Destination - Argentina (AR)
Passport
Passport required.
Document Validity:Passports and other documents accepted for entry must be valid on arrival.
Minors:Minors under 13 years of age traveling unaccompanied to, or transiting Argentina, must hold a notarized authorization in which parents/guardians state that minor may travel alone.
Minors of 13 years old or above: no restrictions apply, depending on their own country's law.
Passport not required for foreign minors under 5 years of age, if traveling with a parent/guardian and being registered in the passport of the companion.
Visa
Visa required.
Visa Exemptions:Nationals of China (People’s Rep.) with a "Passport for Public Affairs" for a maximum stay of 30 days.
Passengers with a Hong Kong (SAR China) passport for a maximum stay of 90 days.
Nationals of China (People's Rep.) with a normal passport and an Electronic Travel Authorization (ETA) traveling as tourists for a maximum stay of 90 days. They must have a printed confirmation that the ETA has been approved.
Additional Information:Visas issued for multiple entries must be used for the first time within the visa validity specified in the "vigencia visado" field, counted from the issue date "Fecha de otorgamiento". The visa is valid for multiple entries and each entry has a maximum stay specified in the "Plazo permanencia autorizada" field.
Extension of stay possible to double the originally granted length of stay. Students can extend up to 2 years each time.
Visas issued to nationals of China (People's Rep.) must be authorized by immigration authorities.
Minors:Minors under 13 years of age traveling to Argentina unaccompanied and who are not met upon arrival by parent, legal guardian or authorized person, require an authorization legalized by the Argentinian Consulate in country of origin.
Warning:Visitors not holding return/onward tickets could be refused entry.
Passengers must obtain an ETA authorization at www.migraciones.gov.ar .
Passport required.
Document Validity:Passports and other documents accepted for entry must be valid on arrival.
Minors:Minors under 13 years of age traveling unaccompanied to, or transiting Argentina, must hold a notarized authorization in which parents/guardians state that minor may travel alone.
Minors of 13 years old or above: no restrictions apply, depending on their own country's law.
Passport not required for foreign minors under 5 years of age, if traveling with a parent/guardian and being registered in the passport of the companion.
Visa
Visa required.
Visa Exemptions:Nationals of China (People’s Rep.) with a "Passport for Public Affairs" for a maximum stay of 30 days.
Passengers with a Hong Kong (SAR China) passport for a maximum stay of 90 days.
Nationals of China (People's Rep.) with a normal passport and an Electronic Travel Authorization (ETA) traveling as tourists for a maximum stay of 90 days. They must have a printed confirmation that the ETA has been approved.
Additional Information:Visas issued for multiple entries must be used for the first time within the visa validity specified in the "vigencia visado" field, counted from the issue date "Fecha de otorgamiento". The visa is valid for multiple entries and each entry has a maximum stay specified in the "Plazo permanencia autorizada" field.
Extension of stay possible to double the originally granted length of stay. Students can extend up to 2 years each time.
Visas issued to nationals of China (People's Rep.) must be authorized by immigration authorities.
Minors:Minors under 13 years of age traveling to Argentina unaccompanied and who are not met upon arrival by parent, legal guardian or authorized person, require an authorization legalized by the Argentinian Consulate in country of origin.
Warning:Visitors not holding return/onward tickets could be refused entry.
Passengers must obtain an ETA authorization at www.migraciones.gov.ar .
Oct 7, 2019, 10:59 am
#4
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It is always harder when the story is related third-hand, but if the departure from the US was on or after 18 September, it is unclear to me why the friend needed a visa at all, as an eTA ought to have sufficed. In any event, the starting point would be for the friend to plug his trip details into TIMATIC and proceed from there.
In any event it is unclear to me that AA will simply make a refund or a fee-free change based on a phone call and that the friend may well be assessed a change fee for his return and then make a clear & consise claim on return. But, it is not AA's job to point out alternate means of entry, e.g. eTA vs. visa. Thus, there is significant risk that the friend will spend more and see nothing.
For the benefit of others, it always pays to have a print out of TIMATIC for one's journey if it is in any way non-routine for the location. This i what the agent would have seen on his screen and it is what he will go by it.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...aspx?i=TIMATIC
In any event it is unclear to me that AA will simply make a refund or a fee-free change based on a phone call and that the friend may well be assessed a change fee for his return and then make a clear & consise claim on return. But, it is not AA's job to point out alternate means of entry, e.g. eTA vs. visa. Thus, there is significant risk that the friend will spend more and see nothing.
For the benefit of others, it always pays to have a print out of TIMATIC for one's journey if it is in any way non-routine for the location. This i what the agent would have seen on his screen and it is what he will go by it.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...aspx?i=TIMATIC
Oct 7, 2019, 11:14 am
#5
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Oct 7, 2019, 2:08 pm
#6
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Typically, visa validity is tested on entry to a country. You are then permitted to stay for as long as Immigration gives you, regardless of whether or not it is within the visa validity dates. So, for example, if you have a visa valid for one year, 30 days on each entry, you can still enter on the last day of visa validity and stay for 30 days.
Oct 7, 2019, 7:31 pm
#7
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That's not what he said at all, no not correct. The visa (a visa) is valid for use between the start and end dates of its validity. So he was entering when it was valid at which time he'd get however many days the visa is good for. You don't have to enter and leave between the valid dates. What if you got a 90 day visa that was valid from today 90 days? You'd get the visa and race to Argentina that second to arrive before the day ends? No you would enter Argentina before the 90 days was up and then it expires meaning you cannot enter on it at that point. It does not say you can't be in the country.
Oct 7, 2019, 9:59 pm
#8
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That's not what he said at all, no not correct. The visa (a visa) is valid for use between the start and end dates of its validity. So he was entering when it was valid at which time he'd get however many days the visa is good for. You don't have to enter and leave between the valid dates. What if you got a 90 day visa that was valid from today 90 days? You'd get the visa and race to Argentina that second to arrive before the day ends? No you would enter Argentina before the 90 days was up and then it expires meaning you cannot enter on it at that point. It does not say you can't be in the country.
my recollection when I had a US visitor visa is that it was valid for 10 years from date of issue and valid for unlimited stays meeting tourist requirements , but would not have been valid for a stay that went beyond the 10 year validity
Do Argentine visas only have a 90 day period from date of issue ?
To the OP : the visa label should state what the visa permits. does it just state that it has to be valid on arrival and that stay is permitted beyond the expiry date?
Last edited by Dave Noble; Oct 7, 2019 at 10:07 pm
Oct 8, 2019, 4:38 am
#9
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You only use the visa when you enter, not when you leave a country. If you enter during the validity of a visa, the stay duration stamped in your passport by Immigration is your documentary permission to stay in the country as determined by the Immigration stamp, and thus supersedes the validity period of the visa.
Oct 8, 2019, 4:42 am
#10
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You only use the visa when you enter, not when you leave a country. If you enter during the validity of a visa, the stay duration stamped in your passport by Immigration is your documentary permission to stay in the country as determined by the Immigration stamp, and thus supersedes the validity period of the visa.
As an example for Australa at https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visa...re/stay-longer ----
If your visa has a condition that prevents further stay, you must leave Australia before your visa expires.
You can apply for other visas to return, but only after you have left Australia.
What the rules are for the visa that the OP's friend had for Argentina is important - it may well be that the agent was incorrect, but I don't see that it is definitie
Oct 8, 2019, 4:45 am
#11
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Sure, but presumably the Immigration officer knows that on entry, so the stamp in your passport should still be correct. And regardless, it is documentary evidence that Immigration has permitted you to enter and to remain either for xx days or until a calendar date certain.
Oct 8, 2019, 4:49 am
#12
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Sure, but presumably the Immigration officer knows that on entry, so the stamp in your passport should still be correct. And regardless, it is documentary evidence that Immigration has permitted you to enter and to remain either for xx days or until a calendar date certain.
Oct 8, 2019, 7:49 am
#13
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That's not what he said at all, no not correct. The visa (a visa) is valid for use between the start and end dates of its validity. So he was entering when it was valid at which time he'd get however many days the visa is good for. You don't have to enter and leave between the valid dates. What if you got a 90 day visa that was valid from today 90 days? You'd get the visa and race to Argentina that second to arrive before the day ends? No you would enter Argentina before the 90 days was up and then it expires meaning you cannot enter on it at that point. It does not say you can't be in the country.
Oct 16, 2019, 11:46 pm
#14
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Posts: 7,875
This should be simple to anyone who can read, or who has applied for visas before. The US visa is also like this. If you stay past the 'expiration' that is fine, as long as you are within the 90 days (or whatever period it is) before you entered.
Why would you need to read TIMATIC when you can actual read the visa?
Oct 16, 2019, 11:59 pm
#15
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