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-   -   Equipment change / downgauge = no seat / downgrade. What now? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1983358-equipment-change-downgauge-no-seat-downgrade-what-now.html)

HiAperture Aug 17, 2019 4:52 am
Equipment change / downgauge = no seat / downgrade. What now?
 
I am standing at the gate for my flight from MIA-DFW waiting for the agents to arrive. My connecting flight from DFW-ORD had an overnight equipment change from 789 to 788. I am traveling domestic first paid. I now no longer have a seat assignment and the business Cabin is much smaller on the 788 so I don’t know if there will be enough seats.

If they cannot assign me a seat on the second flight here at the gate at Miami then I can request a refund due to equipment change for the full RT ticket correct?

If i take the flight to DFW without an assignment and they cannot put me in first from what I could tell on the CoC I only get a partial refund, and I would assume they have to get me back to Miami if I don’t want to fly to ORD on another flight or in Y. Do I have that right?

It if I accept a Y seat to ORD I am due a fare difference for the downgraded leg plus compensation in the form of a voucher or points at the least correct?

Ultimately I do NOT HAVE to get on this flight today so if I am going to have a miserable time at DFW and can get out now I would rather get a full refund (and ask for some points for the trouble?).

If they can assign me a seat of course I will fly. But I am doubtful with how much smaller the cabin is.

thanks in advance

HiAperture Aug 17, 2019 5:21 am
Ok the gate agent couldn’t assign me a seat but confirmed it was oversold, so I called gold reservations to cancel and got a refund.

Often1 Aug 17, 2019 5:41 am
Not surprising that AA would cancel as this saves it a ton of money either by having to downgrade or pay IDB/VDB if the overbooking really turned into an oversale.

However, to be clear because this is a public board:
1. AA had no obligation to refund your ticket.
2. AA could have simply downgraded you and refunded you the fare difference.

Thus, I would not count on this as a general matter.

HiAperture Aug 17, 2019 5:52 am
Thanks, I figured I could have ended up winning out monetarily if I went to DFW but I really didn’t want to spend the day stressing about it so I was happy to just stay home. I am going to contact (AAdvantage?) to see if I can get some points for the inconvenience of driving to the airport, parking, ect. to find out what the first agent on the phone at 4:45AM should have told me and I would have gone back to bed.

iadisgreat Aug 17, 2019 7:10 am
Originally Posted by HiAperture (Post 31425935)
Thanks, I figured I could have ended up winning out monetarily if I went to DFW but I really didn’t want to spend the day stressing about it so I was happy to just stay home. I am going to contact (AAdvantage?) to see if I can get some points for the inconvenience of driving to the airport, parking, ect. to find out what the first agent on the phone at 4:45AM should have told me and I would have gone back to bed.
I wouldn't hold your breath for anything more. The phone agent had no idea who would show up in DFW or what the GA would do to fix the issue. Also, you got your refund which is above and beyond what they needed to give you.

wetrat0 Aug 17, 2019 7:38 am
Originally Posted by iadisgreat (Post 31426097)
I wouldn't hold your breath for anything more. The phone agent had no idea who would show up in DFW or what the GA would do to fix the issue. Also, you got your refund which is above and beyond what they needed to give you.
A refund in this case isn't above and beyond. The equipment changed and the cabin was oversold. The customer is entitled to a refund in this case.

HiAperture Aug 17, 2019 8:17 am
Originally Posted by iadisgreat (Post 31426097)
I wouldn't hold your breath for anything more. The phone agent had no idea who would show up in DFW or what the GA would do to fix the issue. Also, you got your refund which is above and beyond what they needed to give you.
Not looking to start an argument here but the phone agent told me the departing airport check in deck (MIA in this case) could assign me a seat, when only the gate agent at DFW could do so. If I had been told there was no way for me to know if I had a seat until getting to DFW, I would have asked for a refund then. A quick google shows that at least under some circumstances AA considers an equipment change to be the same as a schedule change (voluntary refund eligible). Considering I went from having a confirmed boarding pass in a 30 seat cabin to a question mark in a 20 seat cabin, I think the solution to refund was fair, I don't see why it was "above and beyond." I am sure the GA in DFW is glad to have one less passenger to have to deal with and I didn't have to pace around the gate finding out if I had a seat. My first choice would still have been to have taken the flights with an assigned seat, so I don't think some miles are an unreasonable request. I won't get irate if they say no either.

iadisgreat Aug 17, 2019 8:38 am
Originally Posted by HiAperture (Post 31426250)
Not looking to start an argument here but the phone agent told me the departing airport check in deck (MIA in this case) could assign me a seat, when only the gate agent at DFW could do so. If I had been told there was no way for me to know if I had a seat until getting to DFW, I would have asked for a refund then. A quick google shows that at least under some circumstances AA considers an equipment change to be the same as a schedule change (voluntary refund eligible). Considering I went from having a confirmed boarding pass in a 30 seat cabin to a question mark in a 20 seat cabin, I think the solution to refund was fair, I don't see why it was "above and beyond." I am sure the GA in DFW is glad to have one less passenger to have to deal with and I didn't have to pace around the gate finding out if I had a seat. My first choice would still have been to have taken the flights with an assigned seat, so I don't think some miles are an unreasonable request. I won't get irate if they say no either.
I didn't mean to be argumentative, my point was just that the phone agent promised something that they probably shouldn't (that a GA in an upline airport could solve the issue). Above and beyond meant that they refunded you before there was an actual issue (i.e., before you presented yourself to the gate in DFW without a seat) - dozens of times on this forum I've read that the airline doesn't need to do anything until there is an actual problem and in these cases usually make it work out fine due to no shows or compensation for people to downgrade. Either way, you got the refund and didn't travel - I wouldn't pursue it any further, particularly for pain and suffering of having to get up early, but that's me. Good luck!

​​​​​

tylerdurden4543 Aug 18, 2019 11:57 pm
I'm curious, did you take the refund and you will re-book for another day on your desired aircraft or did you cancel a trip (not to be re-booked in the near future) simply because you couldn't guarantee a first class seat for 50% of your trip?

Also, why didn't you ask them to re-route you in first on one of the dozen MIA-ORD flights (some even with lie-flats)?

HiAperture Aug 19, 2019 7:24 am
Originally Posted by tylerdurden4543 (Post 31431042)
I'm curious, did you take the refund and you will re-book for another day on your desired aircraft or did you cancel a trip (not to be re-booked in the near future) simply because you couldn't guarantee a first class seat for 50% of your trip?

Also, why didn't you ask them to re-route you in first on one of the dozen MIA-ORD flights (some even with lie-flats)?
Reasonable question. Call it a mileage run of sorts I guess. I didn't really have any specific reason to be in ORD, but the prices were good for the intl configured aircraft involved routing through DFW (plus good EQM earning in paid F), I have never flown in a 787, had the weekend free to fly somewhere. When it turned from what was supposed to be a fun day in the air to waking up early with stressing news, no seat and spending all morning figuring out my situation (instead of sitting in the Centurion Lounge watching planes come in!) I just decided to take a walk from it. Of course I was prepared for things to go wrong once underway (we are talking about commercial flights here!), I was at least hoping to make it up in the air before any bumps in the road and then roll with it. I will likely reschedule the trip for another weekend.

Certainly if I needed to take the trip I do plenty (most) of my flying in coach and it wouldn't have been the end of the world to get bumped and some compensation and/or I would have just taken a direct flight.

tylerdurden4543 Aug 19, 2019 4:18 pm
Originally Posted by HiAperture (Post 31431876)
Reasonable question. Call it a mileage run of sorts I guess. I didn't really have any specific reason to be in ORD, but the prices were good for the intl configured aircraft involved routing through DFW (plus good EQM earning in paid F), I have never flown in a 787, had the weekend free to fly somewhere. When it turned from what was supposed to be a fun day in the air to waking up early with stressing news, no seat and spending all morning figuring out my situation (instead of sitting in the Centurion Lounge watching planes come in!) I just decided to take a walk from it. Of course I was prepared for things to go wrong once underway (we are talking about commercial flights here!), I was at least hoping to make it up in the air before any bumps in the road and then roll with it. I will likely reschedule the trip for another weekend.

Certainly if I needed to take the trip I do plenty (most) of my flying in coach and it wouldn't have been the end of the world to get bumped and some compensation and/or I would have just taken a direct flight.
Thanks for adding some color - sounds perfectly reasonable to me (though perhaps we on FlyerTalk have a warped sense of what is reasonable)

ijgordon Aug 19, 2019 4:53 pm
Wow, a lot of angst for a potential downgrade on a - what? - 2 hour flight?

donotblink Aug 19, 2019 6:40 pm
Originally Posted by HiAperture (Post 31431876)
Reasonable question. Call it a mileage run of sorts I guess. I didn't really have any specific reason to be in ORD, but the prices were good for the intl configured aircraft involved routing through DFW (plus good EQM earning in paid F), I have never flown in a 787, had the weekend free to fly somewhere. When it turned from what was supposed to be a fun day in the air to waking up early with stressing news, no seat and spending all morning figuring out my situation (instead of sitting in the Centurion Lounge watching planes come in!) I just decided to take a walk from it. Of course I was prepared for things to go wrong once underway (we are talking about commercial flights here!), I was at least hoping to make it up in the air before any bumps in the road and then roll with it. I will likely reschedule the trip for another weekend.

Certainly if I needed to take the trip I do plenty (most) of my flying in coach and it wouldn't have been the end of the world to get bumped and some compensation and/or I would have just taken a direct flight.
You possibly could have taken MIA -> ORD and requested ORC.

HiAperture Aug 20, 2019 7:07 am
Originally Posted by donotblink (Post 31434163)
You possibly could have taken MIA -> ORD and requested ORC.
I appreciate the constructive information. I did not know about an original routing credit, thanks!

JDiver Aug 20, 2019 11:09 am
Originally Posted by HiAperture (Post 31426250)
Not looking to start an argument here but the phone agent told me the departing airport check in deck (MIA in this case) could assign me a seat, when only the gate agent at DFW could do so. If I had been told there was no way for me to know if I had a seat until getting to DFW, I would have asked for a refund then. A quick google shows that at least under some circumstances AA considers an equipment change to be the same as a schedule change (voluntary refund eligible). Considering I went from having a confirmed boarding pass in a 30 seat cabin to a question mark in a 20 seat cabin, I think the solution to refund was fair, I don't see why it was "above and beyond." I am sure the GA in DFW is glad to have one less passenger to have to deal with and I didn't have to pace around the gate finding out if I had a seat. My first choice would still have been to have taken the flights with an assigned seat, so I don't think some miles are an unreasonable request. I won't get irate if they say no either.
Per the AA conditions of carriage, “downgauging” to an aircraft with fewer seats than the original, is a condition that lets the airline off the hook.

OVERSALES

If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than there are seats available), and you are denied boarding involuntarily at the airport, you will be entitled to a payment of "denied boarding compensation" from American unless
1. American arranges for you to be transported on another flight scheduled to arrive at your destination or next 4-hour stopover no later than one hour after your originally scheduled arrival time, or
2. You did not fully comply with American's ticketing and check-in requirements, as set forth in the check -in requirements section, or cannot be accepted for transportation under the rules set forth the acceptance of passengers section.
3. You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled, or
4. You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons,
5. You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified on your ticket, at no additional charge. If
you are...

enpremiere Aug 20, 2019 11:20 am
Originally Posted by HiAperture (Post 31435595)
I appreciate the constructive information. I did not know about an original routing credit, thanks!
Should the occasion arise again, to request original equipment routing call AA and ask for AAdvantage Customer Service (they do have limited hours). In your brief delivery, have your PNR or ticket number available along with a quick explanation that you were involuntarily sent on a different route. They should be able to confirm the correct numbers by phone and credit the account (assuming all AA segments) right then and there.

MSPeconomist Aug 20, 2019 11:22 am
Is it AA policy to solicit volunteers before doing involuntary downgrades? Also, does AA publish its priority rules for involuntary downgrades?

Geordie405 Jul 15, 2020 1:58 pm
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 31436574)
Is it AA policy to solicit volunteers before doing involuntary downgrades? Also, does AA publish its priority rules for involuntary downgrades?
So with apologies for resurrecting what might be seen by some to be an older thread, I noticed that this question by MSPeconomist hadn't been answered and it's pertinent to a flight I have coming up at the end of the month.

There are two of us flying LAX - DFW - PHX - LAS in First but the PHX - LAS flight only has one available seat (which I have assigned to my wife). We are both showing as confirmed and ticketed. The fare class for both tickets is D.

What happens on the day if the current situation remains in play - i.e. no available seat for me. Does AA simply downgrade me? Does AA downgrade someone else? Does the D fare class trump someone with an I class ticket? Does my status count for anything?

I am simply not sure how this could / would play out in practice. Of course I realise that a lot may happen between then and now, and I have an EF alert set up for seat availability.

Thanks!

flyerCO Jul 15, 2020 2:42 pm
Originally Posted by Geordie405 (Post 32534140)
So with apologies for resurrecting what might be seen by some to be an older thread, I noticed that this question by MSPeconomist hadn't been answered and it's pertinent to a flight I have coming up at the end of the month.

There are two of us flying LAX - DFW - PHX - LAS in First but the PHX - LAS flight only has one available seat (which I have assigned to my wife). We are both showing as confirmed and ticketed. The fare class for both tickets is D.

What happens on the day if the current situation remains in play - i.e. no available seat for me. Does AA simply downgrade me? Does AA downgrade someone else? Does the D fare class trump someone with an I class ticket? Does my status count for anything?

I am simply not sure how this could / would play out in practice. Of course I realise that a lot may happen between then and now, and I have an EF alert set up for seat availability.

Thanks!
The bulkhead (row 1 or row 3 depending on plane) aisle seats are blocked prior to gate. They'll be assigned at gate.

Geordie405 Jul 15, 2020 3:05 pm
Originally Posted by flyerCO (Post 32534240)
The bulkhead (row 1 or row 3 depending on plane) aisle seats are blocked prior to gate. They'll be assigned at gate.
Thanks! That's what I'd assumed but the seats don't show as blocked in EF but rather as occupied. That's what prompted the post.

Stripe Jul 15, 2020 3:51 pm
Originally Posted by Geordie405 (Post 32534140)
What happens on the day if the current situation remains in play - i.e. no available seat for me. Does AA simply downgrade me? Does AA downgrade someone else? Does the D fare class trump someone with an I class ticket? Does my status count for anything?
It's highly unlikely that AA would involuntarily downgrade anyone who already has a seat assignment. The only normal exception is someone who was upgraded at the airport. There are also anecdotes of an agent picking out the most recently upgraded passenger and approaching them with an offer to downgrade, but it is normally some kind of VIP that needs/wants the seat.

Originally Posted by iadisgreat (Post 31426309)
I didn't mean to be argumentative, my point was just that the phone agent promised something that they probably shouldn't (that a GA in an upline airport could solve the issue). ​​​​​
This made me laugh. Agents are always kicking the can down the road. Phone agents will tell you to go to the airport and your problem will be solved by the agents there. The ticketing agents say you have to call the EXP desk or whatever to fix your problem. The gate agents tell you to go on board and the flight attendants will sort out your seating problem. And the flight attendants tell you in the air that agents on the ground are monitoring your delayed flight and will meet it and solve all of your connection problems.

Geordie405 Jul 21, 2020 2:19 pm
So just as an update to this I had an EF alert on Saturday morning to say that there was now an available seat on the flight and, as luck would have it, it was adjacent to the seat I'd picked for my wife. Looking at EF yesterday (or maybe the day before) showed another 4 vacant seats. The answer to the "What if?" question will need to wait for another day :)

standbyalldtime Jul 21, 2020 3:16 pm
FYI, the agent's systems automatically generates a list of DG passengers. I believe it's upgrades first, then status (i.e. if you have status and somebody else has no status, they will be downgraded before you), then fare class, with either EQD or check in time being the tiebreaker. I'm not sure of the actual parameters as those are not published.

It's similar to Cabin Roll upgrades. There used to be more agent discretion for cabin rolls but now it's an automatic list that the agent is supposed to follow in order.

I don't believe they solicit volunteers for downgrades, since there are no heavy penalties for downgrades like there are IDBs. Generally you will get voucher for a few hundred dollars if you originally were upgraded, or a voucher+fare difference if on a paid fare.

Often1 Jul 21, 2020 4:29 pm
I know that AA will, on occasion, approach a passenger they deem likely to accept a downgrade or reroute, but it's rare.

Unless it is a departure from the EU, the sole penalty is a refund of the fare difference.

beachfan Jul 21, 2020 4:50 pm
Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 32548928)
I know that AA will, on occasion, approach a passenger they deem likely to accept a downgrade or reroute, but it's rare.

Unless it is a departure from the EU, the sole penalty is a refund of the fare difference.
And from what I heard, it's the difference between what you paid for F and the current Y day of departure fare (unless you can prove otherwise by a screen shot of the coach fare on the day you purchased F).

merrickdb Jul 21, 2020 7:17 pm
At the moment there are a tremendous number of no-shows, so there's a decent chance the OP would gotten a seat anyway.

Geordie405 Oct 7, 2020 12:00 pm
So this issue has cropped up again. I have a flight tomorrow from LAS - PHX and then on to LAX. I originally had seats 1A and 1F assigned up until this morning when I went to check in. Now no seats assigned. Aircraft was originally an A320 or A321 when I booked but was downgauged some time back to an A319. At that point we went from two adjacent seats to 1A and 1F. The app simply says that seats will be assigned at the airport. EF shows all the First fare classes as zero and all seats occupied (not blocked).

I think this clearly shows that AA will potentially downgrade those who already have seat assignments (as we did, right up until this morning). Not wishing to take the chance of being downgraded I have cancelled and rebooked with DL to fly direct. I don't need the Tier Points this year, plus it's a 9.53 am departure rather than a 7.10 am one so an extra couple of hours in bed!

MiamiAirport Formerly NY George Oct 7, 2020 12:11 pm
Originally Posted by Geordie405 (Post 32729801)
So this issue has cropped up again. I have a flight tomorrow from LAS - PHX and then on to LAX. I originally had seats 1A and 1F assigned up until this morning when I went to check in. Now no seats assigned. Aircraft was originally an A320 or A321 when I booked but was downgauged some time back to an A319. At that point we went from two adjacent seats to 1A and 1F. The app simply says that seats will be assigned at the airport. EF shows all the First fare classes as zero and all seats occupied (not blocked).

I think this clearly shows that AA will potentially downgrade those who already have seat assignments (as we did, right up until this morning). Not wishing to take the chance of being downgraded I have cancelled and rebooked with DL to fly direct. I don't need the Tier Points this year, plus it's a 9.53 am departure rather than a 7.10 am one so an extra couple of hours in bed!
AA will offer compensation for volunteers to downgrade. With the A319 these might be all sold F seats not upgrades. If there are no takers to volunteer then the one without a seat assignment would be bumped and given compensation. Happened to a flight I was on Monday in which the person without an F seat assignment got a $500 voucher for CLT/RDU (she was unhappy). I would think being bumped back to Y for LAS/PHX (what about 250-300 miles) for a $500 voucher would be worth it for most paxs.

wakesetter93 Oct 7, 2020 5:48 pm
Originally Posted by flyerCO (Post 32534240)
The bulkhead (row 1 or row 3 depending on plane) aisle seats are blocked prior to gate. They'll be assigned at gate.
Is this something new? I flew DFW-SAT (your base) almost every week for over a year and selected 3F (MD80, 738) or 1F (A321) at the time of booking almost every trip.

ISTFlyer Oct 7, 2020 9:49 pm
Originally Posted by wakesetter93 (Post 32730622)
Is this something new? I flew DFW-SAT (your base) almost every week for over a year and selected 3F (MD80, 738) or 1F (A321) at the time of booking almost every trip.
On empty flights, to add extra distance between the crew at the front galley and the passengers, the bulkhead row in First may be blocked.
Same situation for emergency exit rows on wide-bodies where the crew and passengers sit face to face during takeoff/landing.

fly747first Oct 8, 2020 12:39 am
Originally Posted by Stripe (Post 32534404)
It's highly unlikely that AA would involuntarily downgrade anyone who already has a seat assignment. The only normal exception is someone who was upgraded at the airport. There are also anecdotes of an agent picking out the most recently upgraded passenger and approaching them with an offer to downgrade, but it is normally some kind of VIP that needs/wants the seat.
Ok well one time my MIA JFK flight was super delayed and I barely made it to my JFK SFO flight only to discover that my seat had been given away to a nonrev. I put my foot down telling the gate agent I had still arrived on time before she closed the flight and though I was given all sorts of bad looks, I got my F seat back and the nonrev was sent back to Y. I don't like calling myself a VIP but my seat shouldn't have been given away when it wasn't even my fault that the flight from MIA was so late.


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