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-   American Airlines | AAdvantage (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage-733/)
-   -   AA and AS relationship becomes further reduced; awards end 3/2020 (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1979216-aa-relationship-becomes-further-reduced-awards-end-3-2020-a.html)

felicidad76 Jul 19, 2019 12:04 pm
AA and AS relationship becomes further reduced; awards end 3/2020
 
Per multiple blogs the relationship is going to be further diluted, if any remains beside lounge access. Anyone else can comment?

American Expected to Further Gut its Partnership With Alaska Airlines
by Gary Leff on July 19, 2019 link

JonNYC
@xJonNYC
look for more degradation to the AA/AS partnership (such as it is) coming. Not surprising, I suppose, but will definitely affect those who currently earn, etc. I'd expect reciprocal lounge access to remain however, but all up in the air at this point.
7:04 AM - Jul 19, 2

JDiver Jul 19, 2019 12:14 pm
Originally Posted by felicidad76 (Post 31321232)
Per multiple blogs the relationship is going to be further diluted, if any remains beside lounge access. Anyone else can comment?
Sources? Summary? What further has been lost that wasn’t lost as of 1 Jan 2018? (That occurred due to Alaska’s takeover of Virgin America.)

The only remaining parts of any AA - AS relationship are 1) some codeshares, 2) lounge access for Admirals Club members. Oh, using award miles! I just secured two MileSAAver First seats on AS SMF-KOA nonstop.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...-airlines.html

mvoight Jul 19, 2019 12:20 pm
Originally Posted by felicidad76 (Post 31321232)
Per multiple blogs the relationship is going to be further diluted, if any remains beside lounge access. Anyone else can comment?
I just used orphaned AS miles for an AA ticket, and AA gave me the option to upgrade with <stickers>

felicidad76 Jul 19, 2019 12:23 pm
Well i am alaska mvpg75k and i used aa a lot when flying internationally to earn bunch of miles. Now it is questionable will even this continue

CoMooter Jul 19, 2019 12:43 pm
Glad I have a BA account to use - even if AS goes away (more) for crediting when I need to fly AA international.

It is a sad situation when I am a 3M EQM with AA and still have zero desire to gain anymore (dis)AAdvantage miles in my account.

Even SkyPesos are worth more at this point IMHO.

beachfan Jul 19, 2019 1:03 pm
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31321265)
Sources? Summary? What further has been lost that wasnt lost as of 1 Jan 2018? (That occurred due to Alaskas takeover of Virgin America.)

The only remaining parts of any AA - AS relationship are 1) some codeshares, 2) lounge access for Admirals Club members.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...-airlines.html
You dont count mileage redemptions AA miles for AS flights and vice versa?

aztimm Jul 19, 2019 1:12 pm
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JDiver Jul 19, 2019 1:16 pm
Originally Posted by beachfan (Post 31321445)

You dont count mileage redemptions AA miles for AS flights and vice versa?

I forgot - just after claiming MileSAAver First seats SMF-KOA on AS next month.

beachfan Jul 19, 2019 1:29 pm
Nice find!!

mvoight Jul 19, 2019 1:42 pm
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31321485)
I forgot - just after claiming MileSAAver First seats SMF-KOA on AS next month.
My AS mileage award for AA seats was less than the AA miles I would have had to pay for the same seats
Of course, I did have to pay the partner award fee :( - But, I am hoping for an upgrade, which I would not have been eligible for on an AA award.

Often1 Jul 19, 2019 4:00 pm
Originally Posted by mvoight (Post 31321569)
My AS mileage award for AA seats was less than the AA miles I would have had to pay for the same seats
Of course, I did have to pay the partner award fee :( - But, I am hoping for an upgrade, which I would not have been eligible for on an AA award.
And this may explain why it may all come to an end.

AS is picking up the tab and not getting much in return. It's all about ROI.

safari ari Jul 19, 2019 4:52 pm
Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 31322016)
And this may explain why it may all come to an end.

AS is picking up the tab and not getting much in return. It's all about ROI.
Seems highly unlikely this is coming from AS. The first set of degradation was due to government/AA wanting to degrade benefits. This would further limit AS options beyond the West Coast corridor, (they are also not planning on expanding and with the loss of DL and AA totally -speculation as of now- within the last 5 years, this would further put them into a regional carrier status). If AS really wasn't happy with redemption rates they would just change them as all airlines are doing. Seems AA is looking for ways to shore up their operations, beyond actually fixing their operations first and foremost.

ashill Jul 19, 2019 5:09 pm
Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 31322016)
And this may explain why it may all come to an end.

AS is picking up the tab and not getting much in return. It's all about ROI.
I think AS is getting a ton in return: AA is their primary partner to be able to offer global award redemptions for their members. The hole that AA fills in AS's award redemption network is enormous, whereas the hole that AS fills in AA's network is much smaller. But of course the cost to AA is pretty small as a fraction of their revenue. So it seems unlikely to me (without any knowledge) that AS would choose to cut off the remaining partnership. But I of course don't know any of the financial terms. And AS may value AA less as a partner given the paucity of actual availability; AA is in practice more useful for providing dots on maps all over the world than they are for providing useful awards that I would choose to put spend on my AS credit card to aspire to.

GUWonder Jul 19, 2019 5:35 pm
Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 31322016)
And this may explain why it may all come to an end.
Not a very good explanation, as it’s not material enough for it to matter to AA. And it’s increasingly less material for AS and AA as AA moves closer and closer to dynamic mileage pricing for award tickets on AA metal and making less space available at the low MileSAAver levels.

MSPeconomist Jul 19, 2019 6:12 pm
Before the Virgin merger, AA and AS complemented each other better, with the AA partnership enabling/encouraging those not located at airports with significant AS service to redeem AS awards more easily, although this was somewhat limited by the one partner per award rule. Now AA can still play this role, but it's much less necessary for those at airports with significant legacy Virgin service, so the percentage of potential customers/FFers who would be impacted in a major way in terms of the network by the loss of AA awards has become much smaller. In other words, the AS FF program needs AA less now for award tickets. OTOH AS might not be very enthusiastic to have FF participants who mostly fly AA, credit to AS, and redeem AS miles, while those who do the same from other carriers are more likely to be dispersed across airlines and credit miles from multiple carriers to AS. I can envision AS wanting to reduce its partnership ties to AA.

OTOH, since the AA/US merger, AA has had less need of AS to enhance AA's network. Even with the new Virgin routes, this is probably still true on balance as the Vrigin routes were generally already covered by AA/US. So on balance, there's also less incentive for AA to continue a strong partnership with AS.

JDiver Jul 19, 2019 11:26 pm
Okay, here’s the source the OP didn’t include, I suspect. Though the OP states “multiple blogs”, this is the one I found, and if there are others they’re probably based on JonNYC’s tweet.

American Expected to Further Gut its Partnership With Alaska Airlines
by Gary Leff on July 19, 2019 link

JonNYC
@xJonNYC
look for more degradation to the AA/AS partnership (such as it is) coming. Not surprising, I suppose, but will definitely affect those who currently earn, etc. I'd expect reciprocal lounge access to remain however, but all up in the air at this point.
7:04 AM - Jul 19, 2
The original “gutting” was announced in July 2017, and the changes became effective 1 Jan 2018.

American and Alaska Airlines Gut Their Partnership Effective January 1, 2018 link
by Gary Leff on July 6, 2017

When Alaska Airlines acquired Virgin America, the federal government required dropping several codeshares with American. Alaska is growing and they aren’t allowed to partner as closely with American as planned.
There’s not much left, other than reducing or eliminating codeshares, miles awards and eliminating lounge reciprocity. And, there’s this - meaning AA - AS relationship would be enhanced if they go this route.

Alaska Airlines Expects to Join oneworld Alliance as a Connect Member
by Gary Leff on November 27, 2018 link

“There’s a Oneworld Connect membership that we’re looking it,” chief commercial officer Andrew Harrison told analysts. “The whole goal here is to ensure that when people in the cities we serve travel internationally they are on our partners so they stay in our program.”

ashill Jul 20, 2019 12:31 am
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31322845)
Theres not much left, other than reducing or eliminating codeshares, miles awards and eliminating lounge reciprocity.
I think its fair to say that eliminating codeshares would hurt AS far more than AA.

And, theres this - meaning AA - AS relationship would be enhanced if they go this route.
Interesting read. Although it seems to me from that post that AS joining oneworld as a connect affiliate is consistent with the AA partnership ending: AS could be sponsored by (say) BA, QF, and CX, and have enhanced relationships with them including reciprocal lounge access while having no frequent flyer relationship at all with AA and just offer each other priority boarding and check in (the oneworld Connect minimum).

LovePrunes Jul 21, 2019 9:55 am
Originally Posted by safari ari (Post 31322159)
The first set of degradation was due to government/AA wanting to degrade benefits.
Huh? What did the government have to do with degrading AA/AS benefits? Had AA/AS reduced benefits to try and get some kind of government approval for something between the two airlines?

ashill Jul 21, 2019 10:24 am
Originally Posted by LovePrunes (Post 31326588)
Huh? What did the government have to do with degrading AA/AS benefits? Had AA/AS reduced benefits to try and get some kind of government approval for something between the two airlines?
As a condition of the AS/VX merger, the government required AA and AS to significantly cut back their codeshare agreement.

At the time, I thought that didnt mean much. But when AA and AS then cut back their frequent flyer partnership to mostly only cover codeshares, it became a dramatic change. I dont know which party wanted to cut the benefits (or of it was really mutual), and I dont know if the loss of revenue due to the codeshare reductions played into it.

diver858 Jul 21, 2019 12:40 pm
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31321485)
I forgot - just after claiming MileSAAver First seats SMF-KOA on AS next month.
It has been quite common for AA to offer saaver mileage redemption to Hawaii on AS metal, maximize RASM on AA metal to Hawaii.

JDiver Jul 21, 2019 1:20 pm
Originally Posted by diver858 (Post 31326988)
It has been quite common for AA to offer saaver mileage redemption to Hawaii on AS metal, maximize RASM on AA metal to Hawaii.
Thats good to know. Thanks! (It certainly works for me! :D)

ashill Jul 21, 2019 2:01 pm
Originally Posted by diver858 (Post 31326988)
It has been quite common for AA to offer saaver mileage redemption to Hawaii on AS metal, maximize RASM on AA metal to Hawaii.
Youre talking like AA is choosing to release inventory on AS metal. Thats not the case, Im pretty sure. Youre just seeing the fact that AS is choosing to release more low-level award inventory than AA is.

limeyx Jul 21, 2019 2:03 pm
Really hoping AA will increase its presence at SEA then (but not hopeful). Trying to use them but it's not easy having to connect to get anywhere reasonable
Don't really want to switch to Delta and start over but may have to especially as this is company's preferred airline

millionmiler Jul 21, 2019 5:16 pm
Originally Posted by ashill (Post 31327249)


Youre talking like AA is choosing to release inventory on AS metal. Thats not the case, Im pretty sure. Youre just seeing the fact that AS is choosing to release more low-level award inventory than AA is.
AA can see the total available inventory and then count on the fact that AS is providing more allowing them to provide less. AS could modify that unilaterally but until then specific AA flights can be set to show greater returns. There are countless more RM decisions made with less predictive data than that.

JonNYC Oct 2, 2019 8:07 am
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31322845)
Okay, here’s the source the OP didn’t include, I suspect. Though the OP states “multiple blogs”, this is the one I found, and if there are others they’re probably based on JonNYC’s tweet.



The original “gutting” was announced in July 2017, and the changes became effective 1 Jan 2018.



There’s not much left, other than reducing or eliminating codeshares, miles awards and eliminating lounge reciprocity. And, there’s this - meaning AA - AS relationship would be enhanced if they go this route.

Indeed, was all based my tweet ) on July 19th:


And will be announced today :(

JDiver Oct 2, 2019 8:36 am
Yep, I see it.

Two years ago American Airlines stopped allowing customers to earn miles on most Alaska Airlines flights. Alaska sources told me at the time this was a decision made by American, and one they were disappointed by.

Back in July I told you to expect even more degradation of the American Airlines-Alaska Airlines partnership.

That’s now been announced: effective March 1, 2020 it will no longer be possible to use American AAdvantage miles to redeem for travel on Alaska Airlines, and vice versa.

American tells me that there are no further changes to reciprocal lounge access or what’s left of their codesharing relationship at that time. The only change this coming March is that neither airline’s frequent flyer members will be able to redeem their miles for travel on the other carrier any longer.
link to View From the Wing
The article contains some bogus justification from AA and analysis of how stupid a move this is. (My words.)

I’ve had some successes using AAdvantage awards on Alaska, and I’ll be sorry to lose those opportunities. I can only hope that date closely coincides with Parker’s dismissal, the way AA is on a descent.

felicidad76 Oct 2, 2019 8:41 am
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31586012)
Yep, I see it.



The article contains some bogus justification from AA and analysis of how stupid a move this is. (My words.)

Ive had some successes using AAdvantage awards on Alaska, and Ill be sorry to lose those opportunities. I can only hope that date closely coincides with Parkers dismissal, the way AA is on a descent.
agree
this is abhorring

IADCAflyer Oct 2, 2019 9:29 am
Wow, this sucks. Been flying my mom out routinely over the past year and a half and 90% of those award tickets have involved an AS flight on at least one of the two segments each way. She greatly prefers the AS product.

uxb Oct 2, 2019 2:06 pm
Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31586012)
Ive had some successes using AAdvantage awards on Alaska, and Ill be sorry to lose those opportunities. I can only hope that date closely coincides with Parkers dismissal, the way AA is on a descent.


I wonder what this will do to married-segment logic now that AA can't offload its elites on AS TCON flights. /sarcasm

AA2070 Oct 2, 2019 2:32 pm
A modest proposal:
  • Get rid of any AA employee whose title starts with Chief. Pick any random people off the street to replace them.
  • Buy or merge or otherwise join forces with AS or be bought by them
  • Dehub PHX in favor of LAX and SEA
  • Retain AS identity legally as "Alaska Airlines, an American Air Group Company" with management of that business unit remaining in SEA to avoid a repeat of Reno Air/Air Cal etc.
  • Cooperate and align services in the spirit of NW/CO in the mid 2000s
  • AS Joins OneWorld either in full or as a connect member sponsored by AA
This would:
  • Give AA an actual West Coast network instead of E170s out of the LAX Eagle's Nest
  • Give AS access to AA's worldwide network
  • Allow AS to retain its brand and identity, particularly strong in SEA/PDX/AK
  • Reinstate reciprocial earn/burn and elite benefits
  • Give me great personal satisfaction

USFlyerUS Oct 2, 2019 2:41 pm
Interesting proposal. DOJ will never allow it.

uxb Oct 2, 2019 4:11 pm
Originally Posted by AA2070 (Post 31587382)
A modest proposal:
  • Dehub PHX in favor of LAX and SEA
Thats what Discount Dougie shouldve done in the first place. PHX is the one hub that loses AA the most money, and its only going to get worse with climate change.

USFlyerUS Oct 2, 2019 4:25 pm
Originally Posted by uxb (Post 31587697)
That’s what Discount Dougie should’ve done in the first place. PHX is the one hub that loses AA the most money, and it’s only going to get worse with climate change.
Recall the DOJ settlement required them to maintain service levels at certain hubs. I forget the specific language but there was language regarding this.

Also, I believe PHX is profitable and holds its own, from what I've read elsewhere and heard from AA sources. Where are you seeing that it was reported it's not?

gateH15 Oct 2, 2019 4:26 pm
Originally Posted by uxb (Post 31587697)
Thats what Discount Dougie shouldve done in the first place. PHX is the one hub that loses AA the most money, and its only going to get worse with climate change.
Im curious as to why PhX loses money? Isnt weather always perfect in PHX? No storms or snow amd
flights are usually
on time unless plane goes mechanical

LovePrunes Oct 2, 2019 4:30 pm
from east coast, AA redemptions were always cluttered up on the booking screen offering Alaska flights I didn't want instead of AA flights & routings . Anything for miles on AA in business saver thru the West Coast up to say, Vanouver had these AWFUL mixes of coach Alaska flight choices along side even when redeeming Business mileage rates. So good riddance, to be honest.

I never redeemed any on Alaska, I so won't lose anything. Hopefully Alaska will join Oneworld as a connect partner / member for those who relied on them.

LovePrunes Oct 2, 2019 4:56 pm
Originally Posted by uxb (Post 31587697)
That’s what Discount Dougie should’ve done in the first place. PHX is the one hub that loses AA the most money, and it’s only going to get worse with climate change.
what stats are you referencing we can see that shows PHX loses AA the most money? Can't find the recent stats I've seen but I think you're mistaken; I think PHX is lower-middle of the pack of hubs for profits.
PUH LEEZE No political climate change omni in this topic, c'mon!. Otherwise someone will hit you with a pack of plastic straws and crude oil !

uxb Oct 2, 2019 5:37 pm
Originally Posted by gateH15 (Post 31587734)
Im curious as to why PhX loses money? Isnt weather always perfect in PHX? No storms or snow amd
flights are usually
on time unless plane goes mechanical
I guess you didnt fly in/out of PHX this summer where the 120f+ temps grounded planes as frequently as their electrical storms and haboobs. Ive had a dozen flights in/out of PHX and ALL were cancelled forcing me to overnight at PHX in either direction. Ive spent more time in Sky Harbor than I care to admit.

P.S. Also, if youre trying to fly into LGB, then dont because AA was brought up on criminal charges for frequently violating the citys noise abatement programme thanks to weather at PHX.

JonNYC Oct 2, 2019 5:57 pm
Originally Posted by LovePrunes (Post 31587813)
what stats are you referencing we can see that shows PHX loses AA the most money?
Wouldn't hold your breath on that data being produced in response.

sullim4 Oct 2, 2019 6:41 pm
At least you guys aren't on the AS side of this. Our European redemption options are now BA, EI, and FI. As you all well know, BA is abhorrently expensive to redeem on. AS is charging 280k miles each way for EI J SEA-DUB, which again just boggles the mind. With FI, you're stuck flying a 757 from SEA to KEF.

AA was a great option to redeem on... despite inventory sometimes being tough to find, the schedules were good and there were enough interesting destinations in Europe and South America to cobble together a solid itinerary.

If DL's stake in LAN spells the end of LAN's partnership with AS, then the termination of the AA relationship means that there are a grand total of 0 options to South America for AS fliers.

IADCAflyer Oct 2, 2019 7:24 pm
Originally Posted by LovePrunes (Post 31587747)
from east coast, AA redemptions were always cluttered up on the booking screen offering Alaska flights I didn't want instead of AA flights & routings . Anything for miles on AA in business saver thru the West Coast up to say, Vanouver had these AWFUL mixes of coach Alaska flight choices along side even when redeeming Business mileage rates. So good riddance, to be honest.

I never redeemed any on Alaska, I so won't lose anything. Hopefully Alaska will join Oneworld as a connect partner / member for those who relied on them.
I was thrilled to have AS options. Often the option would be DCA-MSP-SAN with a 75 minute layover or SAN-STL-DCA with 55 minute layover (the segment out of or into SAN being on AS), or I could fly DCA-DFW-SAN at 6:00 am with the DFW departure on AA being at 8:59 pm.

AA award availability has been awful and frankly the only way to redeem miles to the west coast has been because of the AS options.


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