due to weather, agent rebooked me to wrong airport 7900 miles away, should I fly?
#301
Join Date: Jan 2012
Programs: AY+ Plat, Marriott Plat, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 2,846
It is illegal in the same way it is illegal to keep money erroneously transferred by a bank into one's account. One cannot just spend the $3M if one finds it there. It has to be returned to the bank. The consequences of absconding with the money would be an arrest for theft/conversion.
2. Even if you are not allowed to legally keep money erroneously transferred into your bank account, it's not clear that OP in this case benefitted in the same way one would benefit if $3 million were erroneously placed in one's bank account. I think many would say that OP was actually highly inconvenienced.
#302
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,031
Not that it matters, but for all we know, PGV is a more expensive ticket than PVG.
#303
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 274
There is a huge difference. When a bank erroneously transfer money into your account, its own balance sheet got reduced by that amount. When an airline puts you on a particular route by accident or not, its balance sheet does not change. So it can't argue it lost money. That's why the airlines route people all over during IRROPS.
#304
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hawai'i Nei
Programs: Au: UA, Marriott, Hilton; GE
Posts: 7,141
1. I'm pretty sure there is a difference (at least legally) between intentionally taking money with intent to deprive permanently (i.e., theft) and keeping money erroneously transferred into a bank account (which, at worst, seems like unjust enrichment).
2. Even if you are not allowed to legally keep money erroneously transferred into your bank account, it's not clear that OP in this case benefitted in the same way one would benefit if $3 million were erroneously placed in one's bank account. I think many would say that OP was actually highly inconvenienced.
2. Even if you are not allowed to legally keep money erroneously transferred into your bank account, it's not clear that OP in this case benefitted in the same way one would benefit if $3 million were erroneously placed in one's bank account. I think many would say that OP was actually highly inconvenienced.
There is a huge difference. When a bank erroneously transfer money into your account, its own balance sheet got reduced by that amount. When an airline puts you on a particular route by accident or not, its balance sheet does not change. So it can't argue it lost money. That's why the airlines route people all over during IRROPS.
#305
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 274
Theft means A steal something from B. It has nothing to do with B gives something to A voluntarily.
Even if a bank gives you $3m by accident, it's not a theft, especially if you don't touch it. But if you steal something, even if you pay it entirely back, you are in violation of law and face penalties.
So there is a huge difference and calling this a theft is wrong.
Finally in this case, it's impossible for the airline to claim that it lost money.
Even if a bank gives you $3m by accident, it's not a theft, especially if you don't touch it. But if you steal something, even if you pay it entirely back, you are in violation of law and face penalties.
So there is a huge difference and calling this a theft is wrong.
Finally in this case, it's impossible for the airline to claim that it lost money.
#306
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hawai'i Nei
Programs: Au: UA, Marriott, Hilton; GE
Posts: 7,141
Theft means A steal something from B. It has nothing to do with B gives something to A voluntarily.
Even if a bank gives you $3m by accident, it's not a theft, especially if you don't touch it. But if you steal something, even if you pay it entirely back, you are in violation of law and face penalties.
So there is a huge difference and calling this a theft is wrong.
Finally in this case, it's impossible for the airline to claim that it lost money.
Even if a bank gives you $3m by accident, it's not a theft, especially if you don't touch it. But if you steal something, even if you pay it entirely back, you are in violation of law and face penalties.
So there is a huge difference and calling this a theft is wrong.
Finally in this case, it's impossible for the airline to claim that it lost money.
"(4) Obtaining services by deception. A person intentionally obtains services, known by the person to be available only for compensation, by deception, false token, or other means to avoid payment for the services. When compensation for services is ordinarily paid immediately upon the rendering of them, absconding without payment or offer to pay is prima facie evidence that the services were obtained by deception.
(5) Diversion of services. Having control over the disposition of services of another to which a person is not entitled, the person intentionally diverts those services to the person's own benefit or to the benefit of a person not entitled thereto."
FYI, I'm sure airline CPAs would school us all about fixed and variable costs leading to the pricing of airline tickets.
#307
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 274
Regarding (4), was deception involved if it's by AA's own mistake?
Regarding (5), so if AA upgrades you, it can come back afterwards and sue you saying "hey we upgraded you by accident and you are not entitled, so you have to pay us"? Note the word "intentionally" again.
Both of them having nothing to do with passively receiving.
Finally, it has nothing to do with ticket pricing. In the case where it's not scammed, AA has to prove that it lost money which it can't.
Regarding (5), so if AA upgrades you, it can come back afterwards and sue you saying "hey we upgraded you by accident and you are not entitled, so you have to pay us"? Note the word "intentionally" again.
Both of them having nothing to do with passively receiving.
Finally, it has nothing to do with ticket pricing. In the case where it's not scammed, AA has to prove that it lost money which it can't.
Last edited by fttc; Jul 28, 2019 at 9:52 pm
#308
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
Theft means A steal something from B. It has nothing to do with B gives something to A voluntarily.
Even if a bank gives you $3m by accident, it's not a theft, especially if you don't touch it. But if you steal something, even if you pay it entirely back, you are in violation of law and face penalties.
So there is a huge difference and calling this a theft is wrong.
Finally in this case, it's impossible for the airline to claim that it lost money.
Even if a bank gives you $3m by accident, it's not a theft, especially if you don't touch it. But if you steal something, even if you pay it entirely back, you are in violation of law and face penalties.
So there is a huge difference and calling this a theft is wrong.
Finally in this case, it's impossible for the airline to claim that it lost money.
A reasonable person would NOT have thought AA purposely gave someone a flight to a foreign location 7500 miles further than the domestic one they had paid to go to?
#309
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
If store clerk gives you change for $20 when you gave them $10, is it not stealing if you keep it?
#310
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
Regarding (4), was deception involved if it's by AA's own mistake?
Regarding (5), so if AA upgrades you, it can come back afterwards and sue you saying "hey we upgraded you by accident and you are not entitled, so you have to pay us"? Note the word "intentionally" again.
Both of them having nothing to do with passively receiving.
Finally, it has nothing to do with ticket pricing. In the case where it's not scammed, AA has to prove that it lost money which it can't.
Regarding (5), so if AA upgrades you, it can come back afterwards and sue you saying "hey we upgraded you by accident and you are not entitled, so you have to pay us"? Note the word "intentionally" again.
Both of them having nothing to do with passively receiving.
Finally, it has nothing to do with ticket pricing. In the case where it's not scammed, AA has to prove that it lost money which it can't.
If you accidentally get upgraded for a reason you know to be invalid, and don't report it, then that is theft. That is much more difficult to prove than someone with a domestic ticket who has it changed, in error, to a point 7500 miles more distant with a similar code. A normal person would know it was an error. OP clearing indicated he knew it was an error, and still intended to take advantage of it. I would not blame AA, if they found out and canceled his AAdvantage account, with whatever miles he has in it
#311
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: DCA/IAD/WAS
Programs: MAR AMB, WOH Explorist, AA EXP, UA 2P
Posts: 2,138
This thread has veered way off course. If I were the OP, I wouldn't come back either at this point.
#312
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,374
A better analogy to OP's flight rebooking is: what if I order california rolls, but upon delivery, I receive rainbow rolls, which are much more expensive. This happened to me yesterday. I just went ahead and ate the rainbow rolls. Did I steal from the restaurant? Was I dishonest?
Last edited by davie355; Jul 29, 2019 at 1:29 am
#313
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bregenz, Austria
Programs: AA, BAEC, Alaska, Flying Blue, United, IHG, Hilton
Posts: 2,950
Stealing is taking something, not keeping something given to you. There are cases when you shouldn't keep something, but that is a matter of honesty, not theft.
A better analogy to OP's flight rebooking is: what if I order california rolls, but upon delivery, I receive rainbow rolls, which are much more expensive. This happened to me yesterday. I just went ahead and ate the rainbow rolls. Did I steal from the restaurant? Was I dishonest?
A better analogy to OP's flight rebooking is: what if I order california rolls, but upon delivery, I receive rainbow rolls, which are much more expensive. This happened to me yesterday. I just went ahead and ate the rainbow rolls. Did I steal from the restaurant? Was I dishonest?
If the OP did not take the erroneously booked flight to PVG or DUR or wherever he ended up, the seat would most likely have gone out empty.
The key here is intent. The OP did not set out to fly 8,000 miles for the price of 1,000, any more than you conspired to get bargain rainbow rolls.
#314
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,405
A better analogy to OP's flight rebooking is: what if I order california rolls, but upon delivery, I receive rainbow rolls, which are much more expensive. This happened to me yesterday. I just went ahead and ate the rainbow rolls. Did I steal from the restaurant? Was I dishonest?
If you find a newspaper on a train you aren't expected to try and find the owner, or hand it in to lost and found. If on the other hand you find a diamond ring on the train you will be expected to take reasonable steps to try and find the owner (or hand it to someone who can).
With your mistaken rolls, by the time they were returned they would have been ruined. Fair call to consume them. That's not what happened with this ticket.
#315
Join Date: May 2017
Location: SIN
Programs: AS MVPG75k, AA Plat
Posts: 741
Here is the statute in my jurisdiction related to theft of service. You can argue all you want re applicability:
"(4) Obtaining services by deception. A person intentionally obtains services, known by the person to be available only for compensation, by deception, false token, or other means to avoid payment for the services. When compensation for services is ordinarily paid immediately upon the rendering of them, absconding without payment or offer to pay is prima facie evidence that the services were obtained by deception.
(5) Diversion of services. Having control over the disposition of services of another to which a person is not entitled, the person intentionally diverts those services to the person's own benefit or to the benefit of a person not entitled thereto."
FYI, I'm sure airline CPAs would school us all about fixed and variable costs leading to the pricing of airline tickets.
"(4) Obtaining services by deception. A person intentionally obtains services, known by the person to be available only for compensation, by deception, false token, or other means to avoid payment for the services. When compensation for services is ordinarily paid immediately upon the rendering of them, absconding without payment or offer to pay is prima facie evidence that the services were obtained by deception.
(5) Diversion of services. Having control over the disposition of services of another to which a person is not entitled, the person intentionally diverts those services to the person's own benefit or to the benefit of a person not entitled thereto."
FYI, I'm sure airline CPAs would school us all about fixed and variable costs leading to the pricing of airline tickets.