American airlines sues mechanics unions
May 28, 2019, 9:33 pm
#16
Join Date: Apr 2009
Programs: American EXP; British Airways Gold
Posts: 1,896
BS like this is just one more item in the long list of reasons to bail on airline loyalty and go full on free agency. Let AA management and unions work out their issues on their time. Meanwhile, the smart flying public simply chooses an airline that has its act together. Loss of customers and revenue ultimately penalizes both parties involved.
In my opinion, Mr. Parker's unscripted comments often make it harder for AA senior management to develop meaningful and productive collaborations with the union's designated representatives. That hurts all parties involved, including passengers.
May 28, 2019, 10:17 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SLC
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Plat
Posts: 616
This issue is different than the headline reads.
AA mechanics union problems date back well prior to the merger. AA collective bargaining agreement revolved around Tulsa of all places, which had the largest concentration of mechanics of any AA location. A mechanic in Tulsa made the same per hour as a mechanic at LAX, ORD, JFK, etc. This happened as Tulsa had "the most votes". The cost of living and associated quality of life items made mechanics at LAX, ORD, JFK very frustrated that the Tulsa mechanics had the power, while the LAX,ORD, JFL mechanics worked well below the wages of Tulsa mechanics when cost of living was factored in.
Post merger, the Tulsa mechanics no longer have the "super majority", and AA leadership is looking to move some of the Tulsa mechanics duties OCONUS. No longer can AA leadership placate Tulsa mechanics to get a contract pushed through.
THIS IS A VERY, VERY BIG PROBLEM FOR AA LEADERSHIP. Chairman Parker did great deals for AA pilots, and flight attendants to get the merger approved, not so much for the mechanics. The mechanics are coming to get theirs now......... And with an election year coming up..... I would put my money on the mechanics......
AA mechanics union problems date back well prior to the merger. AA collective bargaining agreement revolved around Tulsa of all places, which had the largest concentration of mechanics of any AA location. A mechanic in Tulsa made the same per hour as a mechanic at LAX, ORD, JFK, etc. This happened as Tulsa had "the most votes". The cost of living and associated quality of life items made mechanics at LAX, ORD, JFK very frustrated that the Tulsa mechanics had the power, while the LAX,ORD, JFL mechanics worked well below the wages of Tulsa mechanics when cost of living was factored in.
Post merger, the Tulsa mechanics no longer have the "super majority", and AA leadership is looking to move some of the Tulsa mechanics duties OCONUS. No longer can AA leadership placate Tulsa mechanics to get a contract pushed through.
THIS IS A VERY, VERY BIG PROBLEM FOR AA LEADERSHIP. Chairman Parker did great deals for AA pilots, and flight attendants to get the merger approved, not so much for the mechanics. The mechanics are coming to get theirs now......... And with an election year coming up..... I would put my money on the mechanics......
May 28, 2019, 10:28 pm
#18
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SLC
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Plat
Posts: 616
Also want to ad I was on a maintenance delayed flight yesterday (Monday 28MAY2019), ORD to DFW. I was sitting in the second row of FC. The flight was delayed for mechanical, and yet it seemed like nothing was "wrong". Received a text delayed from 0800 departure to 0830. The flight attendants just sat down in the jump seats. I was asked if I wanted another flight at 0815, something that has never happened to me before (I would of missed my DFW connection with the delay). AA at ORD had a supervisor at the gate,was reviewing PAX connections, and offered to pull me off the flight and take another flight to reach my final destination (not going through DFW). I checked later in the day and found this 0800 scheduled departure left the gate at 1100.
Seems to me, the ORD AA employees knew what was going on- that maintenance was in zero hurry to get this aircraft going. And AA management at ORD was taking proactive steps to fix what they could- kudos to them.
On a positive note, I had two AA flights today, one mainline and one regional, both were on time.
Seems to me, the ORD AA employees knew what was going on- that maintenance was in zero hurry to get this aircraft going. And AA management at ORD was taking proactive steps to fix what they could- kudos to them.
On a positive note, I had two AA flights today, one mainline and one regional, both were on time.
May 28, 2019, 11:08 pm
#19
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
Logic and sense tell me that this lawsuit is pointless, lets assume they get an injunction...OK so prove that a mechanic who says a plane is not fit to fly is doing so due to labor action vs the plane is actually not fit to fly. Its not feasible to do so, and if you could you surely cannot do so before everyone on said plane is affected - so you might win but we all lose just the same.
That said, the dude in that video wasn't exactly someone I'd put out on a PR tour, he did the mechanics no favors in their struggle with his statements which I'm sure AAs lawyers will gleefully show in court. Crap thing is as a customer is when UA had SOH at the end of that show of excitement we got something, Sweet Spot SWUs which were nice, but I can't see how when this all goes very badly how AA can give us much in that sense given our SWUs already don't require a fare bucket as UAs did plus they also never open C space until just before departure anyways.
Parker put his foot in his mouth with the whole we will never lose money again, 3B is the minimum we will ever earn, calling his shot on the stock price (which he missed by a HUGE margin), and so while I'm firmly a free market guy and not typically sympathetic to the unions...in this case he made his bed here and deserves the discontent he created. Again, I don't find the approach or language of the union guy in that video to be appropriate and you have to really try hard to get me to agree with unions in general but I fully understand their position given the nonsense that AA leadership has spewed the past couple years about their profitability and revenue potential. Now that reality and their projections have missed one another I cannot fault the unions for hearing what mgmt has said and wanting more - even though I suspect the run of airline profits will taper off and likely go negative in the next 18 months.
That said, the dude in that video wasn't exactly someone I'd put out on a PR tour, he did the mechanics no favors in their struggle with his statements which I'm sure AAs lawyers will gleefully show in court. Crap thing is as a customer is when UA had SOH at the end of that show of excitement we got something, Sweet Spot SWUs which were nice, but I can't see how when this all goes very badly how AA can give us much in that sense given our SWUs already don't require a fare bucket as UAs did plus they also never open C space until just before departure anyways.
Parker put his foot in his mouth with the whole we will never lose money again, 3B is the minimum we will ever earn, calling his shot on the stock price (which he missed by a HUGE margin), and so while I'm firmly a free market guy and not typically sympathetic to the unions...in this case he made his bed here and deserves the discontent he created. Again, I don't find the approach or language of the union guy in that video to be appropriate and you have to really try hard to get me to agree with unions in general but I fully understand their position given the nonsense that AA leadership has spewed the past couple years about their profitability and revenue potential. Now that reality and their projections have missed one another I cannot fault the unions for hearing what mgmt has said and wanting more - even though I suspect the run of airline profits will taper off and likely go negative in the next 18 months.
May 28, 2019, 11:22 pm
#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,241
Logic and sense tell me that this lawsuit is pointless, lets assume they get an injunction...OK so prove that a mechanic who says a plane is not fit to fly is doing so due to labor action vs the plane is actually not fit to fly. Its not feasible to do so, and if you could you surely cannot do so before everyone on said plane is affected - so you might win but we all lose just the same.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.
May 28, 2019, 11:53 pm
#21
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
what? If the statistics bear out a sudden increase in MX issues, then AA will have a slam dunk case.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.
End of the day airlines are really the most susceptible to the whims of their mechanics, what pax wants to fly if the dude with the wrench says it's not safe? (answer: none) Also many things are deferrable and others are MEL, its a judgement call and that judgement is in the hands of the trained mechanics (and pilots who can refuse a plane), so no its not a 1, 2, 3 run the numbers because you could never prove that it was intentional labor action absent some paper trail which I'm quite certain in this day and age even the crustiest flip phone owning mechanics know better than to put things on paper/text/email etc. Again, we (passengers) lose.
Lets hope that the war is short and the casualties few.
Last edited by ryan182; May 29, 2019 at 12:28 am
May 29, 2019, 4:39 am
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,753
what? If the statistics bear out a sudden increase in MX issues, then AA will have a slam dunk case.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.
May 29, 2019, 7:00 am
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,241
I will use Occam's Razor to conclude you are not a lawyer nor have your had to deal with litigation involving employees.
End of the day airlines are really the most susceptible to the whims of their mechanics, what pax wants to fly if the dude with the wrench says it's not safe? (answer: none) Also many things are deferrable and others are MEL, its a judgement call and that judgement is in the hands of the trained mechanics (and pilots who can refuse a plane), so no its not a 1, 2, 3 run the numbers because you could never prove that it was intentional labor action absent some paper trail which I'm quite certain in this day and age even the crustiest flip phone owning mechanics know better than to put things on paper/text/email etc. Again, we (passengers) lose.
Lets hope that the war is short and the casualties few.
End of the day airlines are really the most susceptible to the whims of their mechanics, what pax wants to fly if the dude with the wrench says it's not safe? (answer: none) Also many things are deferrable and others are MEL, its a judgement call and that judgement is in the hands of the trained mechanics (and pilots who can refuse a plane), so no its not a 1, 2, 3 run the numbers because you could never prove that it was intentional labor action absent some paper trail which I'm quite certain in this day and age even the crustiest flip phone owning mechanics know better than to put things on paper/text/email etc. Again, we (passengers) lose.
Lets hope that the war is short and the casualties few.
But courts have acted in the past in very similar situations (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...airways-pilots). The same argument about mechanics can be said for pilots too, there are plenty of non MEL items that can be written up and have maintenance called out for too etc.
I guess my point is - why would AA bother suing if they had no hope for an injunction?
May 29, 2019, 9:56 am
#24
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Posts containing ad hominem, overly personal comments and the like have been deleted. Please remain courteous and on topic.
Thank you,
Moderator
Thank you,
Moderator
May 29, 2019, 5:43 pm
#26
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
You are correct - I am not experienced in litigation. I also am not expecting a court to rule blindly based on "feels like" evidence.
But courts have acted in the past in very similar situations (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...airways-pilots). The same argument about mechanics can be said for pilots too, there are plenty of non MEL items that can be written up and have maintenance called out for too etc.
I guess my point is - why would AA bother suing if they had no hope for an injunction?
But courts have acted in the past in very similar situations (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...airways-pilots). The same argument about mechanics can be said for pilots too, there are plenty of non MEL items that can be written up and have maintenance called out for too etc.
I guess my point is - why would AA bother suing if they had no hope for an injunction?
May 29, 2019, 6:17 pm
#27
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: lax
Posts: 3,887
May 29, 2019, 7:54 pm
#28
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: stl
Programs: AA LT Plat/8.1mm now with 1350 miles left in my account and proud of it.. SPG LT Titanium.
Posts: 3,079
May 29, 2019, 9:29 pm
#29
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,241
I don't know what they hope to accomplish, lets say they get an injunction...then what? The mechanics are legally prohibited from taking an action they claim they have not taken...I don't much see what AA gains in this. Maybe everyone will get a sternly written letter reminding them they cannot do certain things and yet its nearly impossible to prove if someone is violating the injunction so seems like some legal box checking to me rather than something that will have a material effect.
In cases of a slowdown or a sickout, a judge cannot prove that each member wasn't unwell to grant an injunction or hold the union in contempt.
May 29, 2019, 9:55 pm
#30
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: MSP/DFW
Programs: Priority Club PLT, Marriott Titanium, AA EXP
Posts: 480
what? If the statistics bear out a sudden increase in MX issues, then AA will have a slam dunk case.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.
There are only 3 possiblities
1. 2.5 year old 787s suddenly decide to all break together
2. Mechanics who werent doing their jobs previously, suddenly decided to start and found so many issues that lead to daily delays
3. This is labor action.
Occams Razor.