Strange denial of boarding on MAN-PHL

Reply

Old Mar 30, 19, 6:53 am
  #76  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Bos-Man-Sxf
Programs: DL
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Gadot View Post
I have had similar experience but squeaked by. They told me the pilot wanted to get off early because of a storm he wanted to avoid. Whether it was true? But there was a lot of turbulence.

But that answer tops all else printed or not. If capt wants to go, he can and you have no recourse
You can claim EC261 for weather, its been successfully done in UK courts before. They would still be breaking contract, nothing in the CoC or AA International Rules says "A pilots decision to depart early voids liability for all previous agreements."
It's also a customer service nightmare, why didn't they just rebook him for free. Their answer, "You were on an economy ticket, sir."
dflanagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 7:15 am
  #77  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Bos-Man-Sxf
Programs: DL
Posts: 60
Here we go:


March 30, 2019




Hello Mr. Flanagin:


I received your recent correspondence regarding the complaint you originally sent us on March 26, 2019. Mr. Flanagin, reviewing our records, it appears as though we followed up with you on March 27, March 28 and March 29.

Based on our records, Mr. M did not present himself for boarding prior to the 30 minute cut-off as outlined in the Conditions of Carriage.

Mr. Flanagin, I'm not seeing any additional information in your most recent correspondence that would change our handling of this matter. If you have any new information that we should consider, let us know. We'll gladly review it and respond.





Sincerely,






Anita J.

Last edited by JDiver; Mar 30, 19 at 10:28 am Reason: Redact non-Management employee name
dflanagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 7:20 am
  #78  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 28,728
Originally Posted by dflanagin View Post
Here we go:
At the risk of beating a dead horse, you should send Ms. J. the boarding pass image, which clearly states 10 minutes. Like most people, I don't read the COC (which isn't even available on many booking channels), but I do read my BPs, and consider the information printed on them to be reliable.

Last edited by JDiver; Mar 30, 19 at 10:29 am Reason: Redact non-Management employee name
moondog is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 7:28 am
  #79  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 28,728
In terms of legal angles, the TX AG would likely compel AA to refund your friend the change fee in a heartbeat, but I'm thinking he might be eligible for EU 261 IDB compensation. As such, please check out this thread:

The 2019 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
moondog is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 8:18 am
  #80  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA (GOLD), VS
Posts: 9,902
Originally Posted by dflanagin View Post
You can claim EC261 for weather, its been successfully done in UK courts before. They would still be breaking contract, nothing in the CoC or AA International Rules says "A pilots decision to depart early voids liability for all previous agreements."
It's also a customer service nightmare, why didn't they just rebook him for free. Their answer, "You were on an economy ticket, sir."
Yes there have been some cases that have been successful but they are not rulings that creates a precedent as the circumstances need to be taken into account. There is still no ruling at the EU level (which is what really matters) that says weather is no longer an exemption.

And yes airlines can try and depart earlier if all pax are on board. If a pilot wanted to try and get away early because of expected bad weather the airline should be paging passengers to try and get them to the gate. And these days with apps and text messages etc it's even easier to contact a passenger and encourage them to get to the gate in such circumstances - there are threads raising this on Flyer talk usually often complaining they were called. But if it does leave a passenger behind then the IDB provisions would apply and I wouldn't expect an airline to fight a compensation claim in such circumstances.


I don't know what the US legal system would say but in a UK district court (Money Claim On Line) they would more likely find in favour of your friend due to the confusion over the various cut off times and whether a reasonable person would understand what they meant and where they needed to be by specific times.

a BA BP from a flight I took this week says 'Board at 1815' but not what time the gate closes - which I know to be 1835 for a 1855 departure but someone else might not

Time for airlines to have a look at what they print on BPs.. They can't rely on passengers knowing the CoC or remembering what a check in agent told them.
JDiver, moondog, wrp96 and 3 others like this.
UKtravelbear is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 8:35 am
  #81  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU + KSFO
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Ambassador
Posts: 4,644
I would write back asking to speak to someone. Clearly the back and forth isnt working in text.

I find it amazing that, given how much AA has locked down things a GA can do, they allow them to offload a pax and push a flight 20 minutes early.
Antarius is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 8:37 am
  #82  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU + KSFO
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Ambassador
Posts: 4,644
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
Time for airlines to have a look at what they print on BPs.. They can't rely on passengers knowing the CoC or remembering what a check in agent told them.
Especially given that the check in agents dont always know the rules. One recently tried to not check my bag in claiming the cutoff was 1 hour
Antarius is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 8:41 am
  #83  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Bos-Man-Sxf
Programs: DL
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
Yes there have been some cases that have been successful but they are not rulings that creates a precedent as the circumstances need to be taken into account. There is still no ruling at the EU level (which is what really matters) that says weather is no longer an exemption.

And yes airlines can try and depart earlier if all pax are on board. If a pilot wanted to try and get away early because of expected bad weather the airline should be paging passengers to try and get them to the gate. And these days with apps and text messages etc it's even easier to contact a passenger and encourage them to get to the gate in such circumstances - there are threads raising this on Flyer talk usually often complaining they were called. But if it does leave a passenger behind then the IDB provisions would apply and I wouldn't expect an airline to fight a compensation claim in such circumstances.


I don't know what the US legal system would say but in a UK district court (Money Claim On Line) they would more likely find in favour of your friend due to the confusion over the various cut off times and whether a reasonable person would understand what they meant and where they needed to be by specific times.

a BA BP from a flight I took this week says 'Board at 1815' but not what time the gate closes - which I know to be 1835 for a 1855 departure but someone else might not

Time for airlines to have a look at what they print on BPs.. They can't rely on passengers knowing the CoC or remembering what a check in agent told them.
Even if my friend had known the CoC as intimately as I do now....I still feel like he could roll up T-15 and at least expect to be rerouted for free if they had to depart early for any reason.
dflanagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 8:46 am
  #84  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,211
It should have made zero difference under the described circumstances, IMO, but I wonder how much of a difference it made in terms of the decision to charge the passenger that he was on a basic economy ticket.
JonNYC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 8:51 am
  #85  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Bos-Man-Sxf
Programs: DL
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
It should have made zero difference under the described circumstances, IMO, but I wonder how much of a difference it made in terms of the decision to charge the passenger that he was on a basic economy ticket.
I assume 100%, it was definitely the most basic economy ticket.
dflanagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 9:37 am
  #86  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: DL Silver, AS MVP, B6 Mosaic, KL, QR, EY, KE, SQ, CX, PR
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by eqeqeqx View Post
Good on you, and who knows, maybe you saved some other poor soul from getting denied boarding. +1 karma points to you.
Several passengers minutes later boarded after me. They closed the door after accounting for the last passenger.

Another interesting comment from the GA is how millenials board up until the last minute let's say T-11. And I consider myself a millenial.
SpeedAdvantage is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 10:32 am
  #87  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DEN/BDL/LGA/HPN
Programs: Marriott Plat Premier; AA EXP 2MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 4,821
Setting aside anything on a boarding pass, what is the rule on when you have to be at the gate for an international flight?

For example, I arrived in Miami a few days ago on a delayed flight at 1034 PM. I was up front and ran over to the gate for my connection and arrived there at 1040 PM. The connection to Santiago de Chile was scheduled to depart at 1055 PM.

Of course, by the time I got to the gate it was sealed tight and the GA's were no where to be seen. There were a couple of non-revs standing around saying the plane had gone out full and was closed. So obviously, they had given away my seat well before 15 minutes before departure.
C17PSGR is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 10:39 am
  #88  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: DCA/IAD/WAS
Programs: AGR S, SPG PLT, MAR PLT, HGP Explorist, AA EXP, UA 2P
Posts: 1,684
It doesn't sound like going through normal channels is going to get your friend anything at this point. My suggestion would be maybe send an email to Doug Parker (well, his staff) directly or see if JonNYC​ can give you some offline advice/contact/magic.
​​​​​
iadisgreat is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 10:59 am
  #89  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Bos-Man-Sxf
Programs: DL
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by iadisgreat View Post
It doesn't sound like going through normal channels is going to get your friend anything at this point. My suggestion would be maybe send an email to Doug Parker (well, his staff) directly or see if JonNYC​ can give you some offline advice/contact/magic.
​​​​​
I actually just called the 1800 number and asked the customer service rep at what point they could deny boarding on an international flight. She replied 10 minutes. I asked her in what cases would a plane could leave 22 minutes early without a checked in passenger, she assured me that wasn't possible!

I then gave her my claim number and told her to internally pass the recording of this call onto the folks handling my case, and I wrote an email to AA support directing them to my phone number.

Anyway, we are still obliged to give them 14 days of warning as to our intent of action which we sent yesterday, so they have 13 more days. Still waiting on official CAA support to submit as evidence, too.
dflanagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 19, 1:51 pm
  #90  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 492
Originally Posted by C17PSGR View Post
Setting aside anything on a boarding pass, what is the rule on when you have to be at the gate for an international flight?

For example, I arrived in Miami a few days ago on a delayed flight at 1034 PM. I was up front and ran over to the gate for my connection and arrived there at 1040 PM. The connection to Santiago de Chile was scheduled to depart at 1055 PM.

Of course, by the time I got to the gate it was sealed tight and the GA's were no where to be seen. There were a couple of non-revs standing around saying the plane had gone out full and was closed. So obviously, they had given away my seat well before 15 minutes before departure.
for international flights I believe they can offload you 30 min before the scheduled departure time. For domestic flights itís 15 min.
gateH15 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread