Strange denial of boarding on MAN-PHL
#16
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 41,991
voided ticket, charged $303 for rebooking and offered nothing. Ive searched the international CoC and the only mention of boarding is here:
HOWEVER, IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 60(F) (RESERVATIONS), ALL PASSENGERS MUST PRESENT THEMSELVES AT THE LOADING GATE, FOR BOARDING AT LEAST TEN MINUTES BEFORE SCHEDULED DEPARTURE.
The bottom line is that if the BP says "10 minutes", that is pretty much gospel. Since your friend met this requirement, I believe he has a solid case for IDB compensation.
#17
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: LAS
Programs: DL PM, Honors Gold, Marriott Gold, AA Gold
Posts: 894
Unfortunately, AA habitually starts boarding super early. I've arrived at "Boarding time" and found entire flights boarded once (HNL) and up to group 7 of 9 another time (PVG).
Here's a thread about the topic:
Stop the early boarding (D0) stupidity
Here's a thread about the topic:
Stop the early boarding (D0) stupidity
#18
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
Given the conditions of carriage do state 10 minutes and the passenger was there > 10 minutes before departure , I cannot see how the passengers are not entitled to protection under EC261
Even, as mentioned, the 30 minutes reference only states that seat assignments may be lost
I would be putting a claim in for any costs incurred plus the EUR600 compensation per person
Even, as mentioned, the 30 minutes reference only states that seat assignments may be lost
I would be putting a claim in for any costs incurred plus the EUR600 compensation per person
#19
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Roswell, GA
Programs: AA EXP 2.8m,Lifetime PLT, Hilton Diamond, IHG PlLT, SPG Gold
Posts: 3,191
OP, dont understand why your friend would leave it so late to get the gate, especially for an international flight.
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight
#20
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: BAEC Silver, IHG Diamond
Posts: 7,747
Depends on what doors they're referring to.
From my experience at MAN, lets take Ryanair as a simple example.
The flight leaves at 10:00am
Boarding generally starts 35-40 mins before that, or when the plane arrives and the doors open.
At 9:40am, 20 mins before the scheduled departure time, security logs are checked to see who is missing from the flight and whether they have scanned their BP at the start of security.
At 9:45am, 15 mins before departure, or sooner if no-one has come through security, any passengers not on board are offloaded along with any bags and seat assignments, paperwork given to the dispatcher (who does his/her things before going to the captain), and the doors to the jetbridge etc. are closed. The doors to the aircraft remain open until the captain has done what needs to be done with the paperwork, the aircraft is fuelled or whatever happens. This could be 2 minutes or 30 minutes. Who knows?
If someone comes turns up after that point, they are no longer a ticketed passenger and have missed the flight (there's also the airport doing a time related final tannoy call - don't turn up after that and you're a no show)
It generally takes a bit of time to get through MAN security (sometimes it can be single digit minutes, other times an hour depending on whether you get held up, pulled aside for secondary or whatever).
If the agents see you only came through at say 9:30am, then it's pretty much guaranteed you won't get to the gate in time, especially at Gate 55 is a bit of a walk from security (not a patch on T2 when it opens - good 20 mins in places there!).
I'm not 100% sure as to the exact situation, but it's possible everyone else was onboard early, there was no response to calls, the op could have come through security late, ICTS (the people with the machines for SSSS / explosives etc. sampling) had started to clear up etc.
I see it all the time at MAN where people wander slowly up to a gate a few minutes before a plane is due to leave, see the doors to the plane are still open as the lane won't go without them and expect to walk onboard, take their seat and then the plane takes off.
From my experience at MAN, lets take Ryanair as a simple example.
The flight leaves at 10:00am
Boarding generally starts 35-40 mins before that, or when the plane arrives and the doors open.
At 9:40am, 20 mins before the scheduled departure time, security logs are checked to see who is missing from the flight and whether they have scanned their BP at the start of security.
At 9:45am, 15 mins before departure, or sooner if no-one has come through security, any passengers not on board are offloaded along with any bags and seat assignments, paperwork given to the dispatcher (who does his/her things before going to the captain), and the doors to the jetbridge etc. are closed. The doors to the aircraft remain open until the captain has done what needs to be done with the paperwork, the aircraft is fuelled or whatever happens. This could be 2 minutes or 30 minutes. Who knows?
If someone comes turns up after that point, they are no longer a ticketed passenger and have missed the flight (there's also the airport doing a time related final tannoy call - don't turn up after that and you're a no show)
It generally takes a bit of time to get through MAN security (sometimes it can be single digit minutes, other times an hour depending on whether you get held up, pulled aside for secondary or whatever).
If the agents see you only came through at say 9:30am, then it's pretty much guaranteed you won't get to the gate in time, especially at Gate 55 is a bit of a walk from security (not a patch on T2 when it opens - good 20 mins in places there!).
I'm not 100% sure as to the exact situation, but it's possible everyone else was onboard early, there was no response to calls, the op could have come through security late, ICTS (the people with the machines for SSSS / explosives etc. sampling) had started to clear up etc.
I see it all the time at MAN where people wander slowly up to a gate a few minutes before a plane is due to leave, see the doors to the plane are still open as the lane won't go without them and expect to walk onboard, take their seat and then the plane takes off.
#21
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
It doesn't really matter how Ryanair works. What matters is the CoC of the airline that the passenger is flying on. It does seem documented that 10 minutes is the latest time of acceptance both in conditions and on the boarding pass. It also seems that the passengers complied with this requirement
Then again, who wants to sit on an aeroplane longer than necessary? the passengers didn't miss the flight, they seem to have complied with the airline's requirements
OP, dont understand why your friend would leave it so late to get the gate, especially for an international flight.
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight
I fly in and out of LHR quite a bit.. Even when the boards in the airport say boarding, groups 4 -9 are being called.
Would rather be at the gate earlier then posted, other then miss the flight
#22
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 204
For other AA-idiocy, see this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2c980866ed08
Good luck to the OP's friend and hope he gets duly compensated.
Good luck to the OP's friend and hope he gets duly compensated.
#23
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: AA EXP (owe), BA Silver (ows), AB Silver (owr), WN A+/CP, IHG Spire AMB, Avis First
Posts: 1,414
Wow. I started the D0 stupidity thread, but this is completely and utterly ridiculous. I'm not even sure what AA's motive here is other than to annoy customers, nobody cares if the flight takes off 22 minutes early.
I hope you get some response from AA and post back. That they voided the ticket was completely unacceptable, but oddly, I'd expect outstations, particularly in the UK to be sticklers for "rules". With AAs toxic culture of making up rules, it can be a ... bad combination resulting in situations like this.
And to all the people who say "I'd never be at the gate that late". Well good for you. But this isn't about you, some people have better things to do with their time and expect the airline to abide by their posted rules and CoC.
I hope you get some response from AA and post back. That they voided the ticket was completely unacceptable, but oddly, I'd expect outstations, particularly in the UK to be sticklers for "rules". With AAs toxic culture of making up rules, it can be a ... bad combination resulting in situations like this.
And to all the people who say "I'd never be at the gate that late". Well good for you. But this isn't about you, some people have better things to do with their time and expect the airline to abide by their posted rules and CoC.
#24
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
It may be that the change fee for an international ticket + fare difference exceeds the cost of a new ticket, so the new ticket may make sense. But, that ought to be explained to the passenger.
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: BOS-LIS-MIA
Programs: DL
Posts: 62
Depends on what doors they're referring to.
From my experience at MAN, lets take Ryanair as a simple example.
The flight leaves at 10:00am
Boarding generally starts 35-40 mins before that, or when the plane arrives and the doors open.
At 9:40am, 20 mins before the scheduled departure time, security logs are checked to see who is missing from the flight and whether they have scanned their BP at the start of security.
At 9:45am, 15 mins before departure, or sooner if no-one has come through security, any passengers not on board are offloaded along with any bags and seat assignments, paperwork given to the dispatcher (who does his/her things before going to the captain), and the doors to the jetbridge etc. are closed. The doors to the aircraft remain open until the captain has done what needs to be done with the paperwork, the aircraft is fuelled or whatever happens. This could be 2 minutes or 30 minutes. Who knows?
If someone comes turns up after that point, they are no longer a ticketed passenger and have missed the flight (there's also the airport doing a time related final tannoy call - don't turn up after that and you're a no show)
It generally takes a bit of time to get through MAN security (sometimes it can be single digit minutes, other times an hour depending on whether you get held up, pulled aside for secondary or whatever).
If the agents see you only came through at say 9:30am, then it's pretty much guaranteed you won't get to the gate in time, especially at Gate 55 is a bit of a walk from security (not a patch on T2 when it opens - good 20 mins in places there!).
I'm not 100% sure as to the exact situation, but it's possible everyone else was onboard early, there was no response to calls, the op could have come through security late, ICTS (the people with the machines for SSSS / explosives etc. sampling) had started to clear up etc.
I see it all the time at MAN where people wander slowly up to a gate a few minutes before a plane is due to leave, see the doors to the plane are still open as the lane won't go without them and expect to walk onboard, take their seat and then the plane takes off.
From my experience at MAN, lets take Ryanair as a simple example.
The flight leaves at 10:00am
Boarding generally starts 35-40 mins before that, or when the plane arrives and the doors open.
At 9:40am, 20 mins before the scheduled departure time, security logs are checked to see who is missing from the flight and whether they have scanned their BP at the start of security.
At 9:45am, 15 mins before departure, or sooner if no-one has come through security, any passengers not on board are offloaded along with any bags and seat assignments, paperwork given to the dispatcher (who does his/her things before going to the captain), and the doors to the jetbridge etc. are closed. The doors to the aircraft remain open until the captain has done what needs to be done with the paperwork, the aircraft is fuelled or whatever happens. This could be 2 minutes or 30 minutes. Who knows?
If someone comes turns up after that point, they are no longer a ticketed passenger and have missed the flight (there's also the airport doing a time related final tannoy call - don't turn up after that and you're a no show)
It generally takes a bit of time to get through MAN security (sometimes it can be single digit minutes, other times an hour depending on whether you get held up, pulled aside for secondary or whatever).
If the agents see you only came through at say 9:30am, then it's pretty much guaranteed you won't get to the gate in time, especially at Gate 55 is a bit of a walk from security (not a patch on T2 when it opens - good 20 mins in places there!).
I'm not 100% sure as to the exact situation, but it's possible everyone else was onboard early, there was no response to calls, the op could have come through security late, ICTS (the people with the machines for SSSS / explosives etc. sampling) had started to clear up etc.
I see it all the time at MAN where people wander slowly up to a gate a few minutes before a plane is due to leave, see the doors to the plane are still open as the lane won't go without them and expect to walk onboard, take their seat and then the plane takes off.
Rule 0087 - Denied Boarding - Article C(2)(D): ALL OTHER PASSENGERS ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED BASIS. HOWEVER, IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 60(F) (RESERVATIONS), ALL PASSENGERS MUST PRESENT THEMSELVES AT THE LOADING GATE, FOR BOARDING AT LEAST TEN MINUTES BEFORE SCHEDULED DEPARTURE
If you do a search function for "gate" or "boarding" in that document, this is the only result that makes a rule about boarding time. I just don't see how they are going to argue their way out of this, regardless if "T-30" means something to well traveled folks. This was my friends first international return flight also, so it's not like he even understood the concept of T-30
Last edited by dflanagin; Mar 29, 2019 at 6:41 am
#26
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 41,991
There seem to be other reports of AA voiding tickets for people who arrive late, but before scheduled departure. In that window, it seems that they ought to be charged a change fee and fare difference and then rebooked. Once the flight has departed, the ticket would be properly voided.
It may be that the change fee for an international ticket + fare difference exceeds the cost of a new ticket, so the new ticket may make sense. But, that ought to be explained to the passenger.
It may be that the change fee for an international ticket + fare difference exceeds the cost of a new ticket, so the new ticket may make sense. But, that ought to be explained to the passenger.
#27
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Whether the passenger was late is a factual question. Because OP was not the passenger, that won't be resolveable here. OP says his friend says T-34, which would have been timely. According to OP, AA says T-29. Whether AA said that to the friend or to OP is unclear.
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: BOS-LIS-MIA
Programs: DL
Posts: 62
The BP does not say T-10 for presentation. It states that doors close at T-10.
Whether the passenger was late is a factual question. Because OP was not the passenger, that won't be resolveable here. OP says his friend says T-34, which would have been timely. According to OP, AA says T-29. Whether AA said that to the friend or to OP is unclear.
Whether the passenger was late is a factual question. Because OP was not the passenger, that won't be resolveable here. OP says his friend says T-34, which would have been timely. According to OP, AA says T-29. Whether AA said that to the friend or to OP is unclear.
My evidence presented as: His airport check-in time, his security scan time, his boarding pass' t-10 warning, the AA COC wording of "reassign", the AA COC wording of "doors close 10 minutes prior", the 22 minute early departure, and finally the AA International Rules for Denied Boarding, AA Rule 0087 (C)(2)(D):
- (D)ALL OTHER PASSENGERS ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED BASIS. HOWEVER, IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 60(F) (RESERVATIONS), ALL PASSENGERS MUST PRESENT THEMSELVES AT THE LOADING GATE, FOR BOARDING AT LEAST TEN MINUTES BEFORE SCHEDULED DEPARTURE.
#29
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 152
Another link
https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...ng-process.jsp
https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/...ng-process.jsp
When and how we board
Most flights start boarding 30 - 50 minutes before scheduled departure, but the exact time depends on your destination and plane. If you get to the gate less than 10 minutes before departure, the doors will be closed and you’ll be unable to board.
#30
Join Date: Oct 2016
Programs: Qatar PLAT
Posts: 26
We know about the T-30 rule simply because we fly AA frequently or visit Flyertalk regularly. Bear in mind not every members of public are like us, if T-10 is stated on the boarding pass then T-10 is the cutoff time for most.