Rumor: Project Oasis retrofitting reversal???
Mar 3, 2019, 10:15 am
#61
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
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Main Cabin / Main Cabin Extra: Rockwell Collins Meridian (Southwest is using it in its 7M8 with 31-32” pitch)
SeatGuru claims
First: Pitch 37”, width 21”
Main Cabin Extra : Pitch 33”, width 16.6-17.8”
Main Cabin: Pitch 30”, width 16.6-17.8”
Lavatories: Rockwell Collins Advanced Spacewall, which is built to accommodate an extra row of seats.
At shoulder height, the width of Rockwell’s Advanced Spacewall restroom -- made by the company’s B/E Aerospace unit -- is about the same as older economy-class restrooms. The space savings comes around sink level, as the wall curves in to allow a row of three seats to be tucked under the bend. The lavatory, which is just one available option, provides seven inches more of cabin space, according to a Rockwell spokeswoman. The company and several airlines declined to provide full dimensions.
The refitted aircraft sport the new “Spacewall“ ultra slimline lavatory (29” in F, 24” in Y). First / Business seats.
The smaller restrooms as installed “out of the box” on American’s 100 new 737 Max aircraft have prompted employees to dub it the Mini. - Bloomberg, 9 Jun 2018
The refitted aircraft sport the new “Spacewall“ ultra slimline lavatory (29” in F, 24” in Y). First / Business seats.
The smaller restrooms as installed “out of the box” on American’s 100 new 737 Max aircraft have prompted employees to dub it the Mini. - Bloomberg, 9 Jun 2018
Mar 3, 2019, 10:31 am
#62
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Rolling Lakes Yacht Club
Posts: 4,985
The difference in space between legacy AA 40” pitch and DL and UA FC is palpable, as you would expect. As for the new FC seat comfort between the three, to me, they’re all more or less the same. If they want to make a difference, keep FC at 40” and who cares about the back of the bus.
Mar 3, 2019, 11:00 am
#63
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Programs: AAdvantage PP
Posts: 13,913
Simple. If enough EXPs and CKs bolt and it’s due to new seat configurations AA might reverse Oasis. Other than a few complainers on FT there’s zero evidence this is occurring. When you consider that the densification brings an extra $400K a year in revenue per seat it’s going to take much more than FT complaining and speculation.
Mar 3, 2019, 11:31 am
#64
Join Date: May 2007
Programs: UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 5,447
Honest question: we've heard several complaints about the poor comfort of the new Oasis F seats, but has there been a similar uproar with the international PE seats? As I understand it, they're essentially the same seat (save for a legrest/footrest and built-in IFE), so I would expect similar problems (protruding bar, poor padding) to manifest themselves there too. Admittedly I don't really fly PE, so I haven't been following the associated threads elsewhere and might've missed out on several rants in those threads.
Mar 3, 2019, 11:34 am
#65
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA EXP, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,658
Simple. If enough EXPs and CKs bolt and it’s due to new seat configurations AA might reverse Oasis. Other than a few complainers on FT there’s zero evidence this is occurring. When you consider that the densification brings an extra $400K a year in revenue per seat it’s going to take much more than FT complaining and speculation.
I am not complaining. But for my personal situation - I am phasing back to UA. My upgrade rate as EXP is near zero unless I fly on Saturday night. I would rather sit at an exit row in Y rather than in the new, dense F cabin. Plan is to earn Plat for 2020, then drop to the LT Gold for 2021 - and only fly AA on East coast non-stops. The new $15K requirement and the reduced Barclay EQM wavier benefit doesn't make sense to go for EXP unless you are buying International J fares. Even if you did $15K with $12K spend and $3K Barclay you would be at the bottom of the list for EXP.
Boeing made a mistake by not producing a 757 follow on. Airlines need planes with more seats for domestic. UA flies 757-300 from DCA to DEN and SFO. DL flies lots of 757s out of DCA. AA no longer flies 757s out of DCA - always going mechanical.
Mar 3, 2019, 11:36 am
#66
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: CUR
Posts: 2,170
The quoted statement that Delta hasn't densified is certainly incorrect. DL added seats earlier, but they have added seats since 2014 to 319s, 320s, 738s, 757s, and 753s. DL did not go as far as Oasis and prep 738s with 172 seats - Delta's have 160. Delta's 'new' 739s and A321s are tight - but not quite as bad as Oasi-fied AA 321neos: DL's 321s have 189, 191, or 192 seats compared to AA's 196 on a 321neo. DL is sticking with with 3x3x3 on 777-200ER/LRs in coach even as they add Premium Select, compared with UA and AA at 3x4x3. Small victories...
A correct comparison would be DL A321 vs (oasis) AA A321. AA’s new configuration has 190 seats, less than Delta’s. (Not that it really matters, they’re both terrible, but at least DL has IFE.)
Mar 3, 2019, 11:47 am
#68
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: YYJ
Posts: 4,137
I have always doubted the figure. Basically suppose one aircraft would fly 300 days a year, 4-5 sectors average a day, that is 1200-1500 sectors (we take the average 1350). $400,000 divide the total sector 1350 that is $296 income per sector.
If we say the aircraft fly 330 days a year, with average 5 sectors, that is 1650 sectors. And average that would be $242 per sector income.
To achieve that AA has to sell out every single aircraft (then why add these seats if you can not fill the original capacity????).
With average domestic coach fare is more close to the figure of $150 and average loads of 90%, I just do not see how this figure can be achieved. And, apparently, we are in the high of the economical cycle, can you imagine when the economic downturn is here?
If we say the aircraft fly 330 days a year, with average 5 sectors, that is 1650 sectors. And average that would be $242 per sector income.
To achieve that AA has to sell out every single aircraft (then why add these seats if you can not fill the original capacity????).
With average domestic coach fare is more close to the figure of $150 and average loads of 90%, I just do not see how this figure can be achieved. And, apparently, we are in the high of the economical cycle, can you imagine when the economic downturn is here?
Mar 3, 2019, 12:01 pm
#69
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 170
Depends which "Oasis" we're talking about, doesn't it?
There are over one hundred crappy LUS A321s out there with no power, no real MCE, and in some cases F seats that don't even have adjustable headrests. If AA does not Oasis that fleet to remedy those issues and also add four F seats I'm going to be pissed.
There are over one hundred crappy LUS A321s out there with no power, no real MCE, and in some cases F seats that don't even have adjustable headrests. If AA does not Oasis that fleet to remedy those issues and also add four F seats I'm going to be pissed.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:03 pm
#70
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: TX
Programs: AA: EXP MR: Ti
Posts: 495
Depends which "Oasis" we're talking about, doesn't it?
There are over one hundred crappy LUS A321s out there with no power, no real MCE, and in some cases F seats that don't even have adjustable headrests. If AA does not Oasis that fleet to remedy those issues and also add four F seats I'm going to be pissed.
There are over one hundred crappy LUS A321s out there with no power, no real MCE, and in some cases F seats that don't even have adjustable headrests. If AA does not Oasis that fleet to remedy those issues and also add four F seats I'm going to be pissed.
The new seat map for those retrofits is already circulating. It looks like the first one should be in service in May.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:24 pm
#71
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I guess I don't understand why the airlines aren't buying larger airplanes to have more seats. AA has a big order for more 319s. Buy more 321s and less 738s.and 319s. And buy more 787s and configure for domestic service. AA flies the 789 from DFW-LAX - and that flight is always full. Why not more 787s, on heavy routes like LAX-ORD, LAX-DFW, etc. If AA can generate $400K a year for another seat then buy larger planes. Same number of pilots to fly a 787 as a 319. These routes used to have DC10s.
I am not complaining. But for my personal situation - I am phasing back to UA. My upgrade rate as EXP is near zero unless I fly on Saturday night. I would rather sit at an exit row in Y rather than in the new, dense F cabin. Plan is to earn Plat for 2020, then drop to the LT Gold for 2021 - and only fly AA on East coast non-stops. The new $15K requirement and the reduced Barclay EQM wavier benefit doesn't make sense to go for EXP unless you are buying International J fares. Even if you did $15K with $12K spend and $3K Barclay you would be at the bottom of the list for EXP.
Boeing made a mistake by not producing a 757 follow on. Airlines need planes with more seats for domestic. UA flies 757-300 from DCA to DEN and SFO. DL flies lots of 757s out of DCA. AA no longer flies 757s out of DCA - always going mechanical.
I am not complaining. But for my personal situation - I am phasing back to UA. My upgrade rate as EXP is near zero unless I fly on Saturday night. I would rather sit at an exit row in Y rather than in the new, dense F cabin. Plan is to earn Plat for 2020, then drop to the LT Gold for 2021 - and only fly AA on East coast non-stops. The new $15K requirement and the reduced Barclay EQM wavier benefit doesn't make sense to go for EXP unless you are buying International J fares. Even if you did $15K with $12K spend and $3K Barclay you would be at the bottom of the list for EXP.
Boeing made a mistake by not producing a 757 follow on. Airlines need planes with more seats for domestic. UA flies 757-300 from DCA to DEN and SFO. DL flies lots of 757s out of DCA. AA no longer flies 757s out of DCA - always going mechanical.
BTW last year I flew Y- on a brand new DL 737-900. I'm short and had my knew up to my chest. Thank god is was only MIA/ATL, I could not have imagined a 4 hour plus flight. The AVOD helped (particularly since getting my tablet out of my bag would have been a feat in gymnastics.) It's not like all the other two ME3 are going with 32-33 inch seat pinch.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:37 pm
#73
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,477
But to sell these 9 added seats LUS A321, 15 on LAA A321, 12 on B738MAX, you need to sell 160 seat or 181 or 187 seats first. Otherwise you are just transport empty seats. Even at the best revenue management, you can not have an average load over 95% at the best months. As I said, that 400K per year per seat figure must respect that these last 9/15/12 seats get sold. If you can not sell that many seats, these 9/15/12 seats is empty, you are not adding 400K per year per seat. And if those seat can not get sold, it is better to get to work in revenue management to increase average fares in order to mark the difference. So to get this figure, the analyst is claiming, you must be confident to sell each seat at average of $242 with other revenues to match the promise. My problem is that I don't think the market can bear so much capacity, and this figure is hugely flawed.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:45 pm
#74
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,477
That is what "densification' is about. I don't care what Jon NYC says there is no way in h##ll that Parker is going to reverse this decision based upon a) complaining from FTers b) Some modest complaining from GLDs and PLTs (and even EXPs and CKs) c) bad public relations. It's not going to happen.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:56 pm
#75
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: AA PLT, SPG Gold
Posts: 2,405
Honest question: we've heard several complaints about the poor comfort of the new Oasis F seats, but has there been a similar uproar with the international PE seats? As I understand it, they're essentially the same seat (save for a legrest/footrest and built-in IFE), so I would expect similar problems (protruding bar, poor padding) to manifest themselves there too. Admittedly I don't really fly PE, so I haven't been following the associated threads elsewhere and might've missed out on several rants in those threads.
On the bright side, Dougie hasn't ripped PTVs out of PEY ... yet.