retaliation by American Airlines suing in small claims court?
Jan 7, 2019, 4:04 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York City, United States.
Posts: 2,625
retaliation by American Airlines suing in small claims court?
Hi, I did a search and only found this dated thread from 2015.
Help Suing AA in Small Claims Please [denied boarding - weight restricted]
I am lifetime plat ( 2 million miler) and have about 600K miles in acct.
What is the likelihood , if any, that AA would retaliate by "closing acct", seizing mileage balance, removing status.
I am not interest in DOT complain. obviously customer service was not effective or I would not be posting this thread
Also is there an option in the conditions of carriage for "binding consumer arbitration" , much like the cable companies and cell phone carriers.
They actually PAY for the cost of the arbitration, because there is a class action waiver.
The only recourse is small claims or AAA arbitration with cell phone and cable companies and I have been told that as soon a consumer files a "demand for arbitration , they are treated very very fairly by offending company as arbitration is very expensive. ( no I've never done it myself , nor sued in small claims court,--- too lazy and not litigious by nature ) but feel really aggrieved by more than one issue , the two most recent within the past 2 weeks.
Help Suing AA in Small Claims Please [denied boarding - weight restricted]
I am lifetime plat ( 2 million miler) and have about 600K miles in acct.
What is the likelihood , if any, that AA would retaliate by "closing acct", seizing mileage balance, removing status.
I am not interest in DOT complain. obviously customer service was not effective or I would not be posting this thread
Also is there an option in the conditions of carriage for "binding consumer arbitration" , much like the cable companies and cell phone carriers.
They actually PAY for the cost of the arbitration, because there is a class action waiver.
The only recourse is small claims or AAA arbitration with cell phone and cable companies and I have been told that as soon a consumer files a "demand for arbitration , they are treated very very fairly by offending company as arbitration is very expensive. ( no I've never done it myself , nor sued in small claims court,--- too lazy and not litigious by nature ) but feel really aggrieved by more than one issue , the two most recent within the past 2 weeks.
Last edited by writetorich; Jan 7, 2019 at 4:06 pm Reason: yypo in title
Jan 7, 2019, 4:41 pm
#3
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Jan 7, 2019, 5:43 pm
#4
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York City, United States.
Posts: 2,625
Has anyone sued ? what was the outcome?
Actually New York George, I would gingerly and respectfully disagree with your assertion. ( hey you an an Evangelist )
My question was not for the community to assess the merits of my claim nor the likelihood of winning/prevailing.
Assuming, It's not completely frivolous and simply not pure harassment / shakedown of AA , I wanted to know any possible repercussions or retaliation, as I consider myself somewhat as a stakeholder with lifetime Plat and 600K banked miles.
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims.
Has any one sued in small claims court and what was the result?
My desire is to get a reasonable remedy , and dismiss the action without anyone appearing.
I assume that AA uses flat rate or very cheap lawyers for to defend such an action.
Jan 7, 2019, 5:52 pm
#5
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
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Posts: 5,234
Actually New York George, I would gingerly and respectfully disagree with your assertion. ( hey you an an Evangelist )
My question was not for the community to assess the merits of my claim nor the likelihood of winning/prevailing.
Assuming, It's not completely frivolous and simply not pure harassment / shakedown of AA , I wanted to know any possible repercussions or retaliation, as I consider myself somewhat as a stakeholder with lifetime Plat and 600K banked miles.
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims.
Has any one sued in small claims court and what was the result?
My desire is to get a reasonable remedy , and dismiss the action without anyone appearing.
I assume that AA uses flat rate or very cheap lawyers for to defend such an action.
My question was not for the community to assess the merits of my claim nor the likelihood of winning/prevailing.
Assuming, It's not completely frivolous and simply not pure harassment / shakedown of AA , I wanted to know any possible repercussions or retaliation, as I consider myself somewhat as a stakeholder with lifetime Plat and 600K banked miles.
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims.
Has any one sued in small claims court and what was the result?
My desire is to get a reasonable remedy , and dismiss the action without anyone appearing.
I assume that AA uses flat rate or very cheap lawyers for to defend such an action.
Jan 7, 2019, 5:54 pm
#6
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
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Actually New York George, I would gingerly and respectfully disagree with your assertion. ( hey you an an Evangelist )
My question was not for the community to assess the merits of my claim nor the likelihood of winning/prevailing.
Assuming, It's not completely frivolous and simply not pure harassment / shakedown of AA , I wanted to know any possible repercussions or retaliation, as I consider myself somewhat as a stakeholder with lifetime Plat and 600K banked miles.
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims.
Has any one sued in small claims court and what was the result?
My desire is to get a reasonable remedy , and dismiss the action without anyone appearing.
I assume that AA uses flat rate or very cheap lawyers for to defend such an action.
My question was not for the community to assess the merits of my claim nor the likelihood of winning/prevailing.
Assuming, It's not completely frivolous and simply not pure harassment / shakedown of AA , I wanted to know any possible repercussions or retaliation, as I consider myself somewhat as a stakeholder with lifetime Plat and 600K banked miles.
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims.
Has any one sued in small claims court and what was the result?
My desire is to get a reasonable remedy , and dismiss the action without anyone appearing.
I assume that AA uses flat rate or very cheap lawyers for to defend such an action.
Jan 7, 2019, 6:01 pm
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York City, United States.
Posts: 2,625
OK , I'll get back to my original post - the below quote was in a reply
"I wanted to know any possible repercussions or retaliation, as I consider myself somewhat as a stakeholder with lifetime Plat and 600K banked miles.
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims. "
Yes, Jonnyc, I did indeed ask about others experiences in a subsequent post
I did not want this thread to become a discussion of the merits, reasonableness or flaming of my position position. ( you did NOT flame me) But I respectfully reply that the specific details are not really extremely relevant to my question.
It was about potential retaliation./ potential repercussions of commencing a small claims court action.
Not the merits , strength of my claims. "
Yes, Jonnyc, I did indeed ask about others experiences in a subsequent post
Jan 7, 2019, 6:30 pm
#9
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: NYC METRO
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Platinum Elite w/ Amb, UA Gold
Posts: 16
I have sued them in small claims court. They waited until the eleventh hour before filing an appearance and then the first thing they did was file a motion to move the matter out of small claims and to a trial level court. They retained very skilled, and expensive, local counsel (which I believe was actually paid for by AA’s insurance carrier even though the claim was for a commercial tort) and the case dragged on for a good long while, through discovery, interrogatories, depositions, etc. until we settled through a pre-trial judicial mediation process conducted by the trial judge (something required prior to jury selection in my state). I was in it for the long-haul with them and got a very satisfactory outcome, but it’s not something I would repeat if it could be avoided.
As for preemption and the ADA, it was something I was a little concerned about even though I could have argued my matter fell within the narrow carve-out in Northwest v. Ginsburg, but AA’s lawyers never went there - I think mostly to avoid having to move the matter to federal court.
I certainly got their attention when I filed my case. If your intention is to file litigation for someone at AA to take notice and listen to your issue, it may work, but be prepared that they may fight you every step of the way.
And, to answer your original question, even though we were on opposing sides of an issue, everyone at AA, including their counsel, were professional and courteous the entire time. It never got personal. There were never any threats made or implied to my EXP status or considerable AAdvantage mile balance, and I continue to fly AA predominantly today. I don’t think you have to worry about any 70’s style mob antics...
As for preemption and the ADA, it was something I was a little concerned about even though I could have argued my matter fell within the narrow carve-out in Northwest v. Ginsburg, but AA’s lawyers never went there - I think mostly to avoid having to move the matter to federal court.
I certainly got their attention when I filed my case. If your intention is to file litigation for someone at AA to take notice and listen to your issue, it may work, but be prepared that they may fight you every step of the way.
And, to answer your original question, even though we were on opposing sides of an issue, everyone at AA, including their counsel, were professional and courteous the entire time. It never got personal. There were never any threats made or implied to my EXP status or considerable AAdvantage mile balance, and I continue to fly AA predominantly today. I don’t think you have to worry about any 70’s style mob antics...
Last edited by ClassyFlyer; Jan 7, 2019 at 6:36 pm
Jan 7, 2019, 6:58 pm
#10
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PHL (kinda, no airport is really close)
Programs: AA Exp, but not sure for how long. Enterprise Platinum woo-hoo!
Posts: 4,550
I have filed arbitrations against both American Express and Uber. I personally think that for a moderately skilled person, arbitration is superior to litigation on an individual basis. In both cases I got what I thought was a reasonable settlement while paying only the initial filing fee. Neither claim actually advanced to arbitration, although in one case they started out trying to seriously low-ball me and I kept writing back saying "$x - best and final offer" and they eventually met it - $x was not my "moon-shot" offer, it was way below what I would have asked for in arbitration, but I needed to give them a reason to settle.
Here's one way of looking at it. There is something called the hearsay rule, which provides that people can only testify to facts they have firsthand knowledge of, but there are about 23 exceptions to the hearsay rule, one of which is the "business records exception" which states that records kept in the ordinary course of business can be introduced by someone who didn't personally create them. (So someone can introduce an invoice even if they weren't the salesperson.) A key part of my case was going to be arguing that Uber lies and therefore you can't trust them to bring a witness who is going to introduce records they claim were generated in the ordinary course of business. I would have been far more comfortable making that argument in the informal setting of arbitration, where I could support it by showing about a dozen incidents publicized in the media about Uber lying, cheating, and stealing as a matter of corporate policy, rather than having to brief the issue in a formal legal way.
Once you file for arbitration, you will be dealing wit the legal department, which means they will be generally competent but also ethical. They will zealously defend the company's interests, but they will not do anything unethical like retaliating against you in related areas. Lawyers get a bad reputation because the parameters of "zealous defense" (yes that's a technical term) are fairly broad, rather than because they will knowingly color outside the lines.
I think all of us at some time get into a dispute based on what we think the rules ought to be, even though we know the company is being fair within the rules as they exist. Be sure you have a valid claim based on the rules as they are, and that your claim is worth the time and effort you'll invest in it.
Here's one way of looking at it. There is something called the hearsay rule, which provides that people can only testify to facts they have firsthand knowledge of, but there are about 23 exceptions to the hearsay rule, one of which is the "business records exception" which states that records kept in the ordinary course of business can be introduced by someone who didn't personally create them. (So someone can introduce an invoice even if they weren't the salesperson.) A key part of my case was going to be arguing that Uber lies and therefore you can't trust them to bring a witness who is going to introduce records they claim were generated in the ordinary course of business. I would have been far more comfortable making that argument in the informal setting of arbitration, where I could support it by showing about a dozen incidents publicized in the media about Uber lying, cheating, and stealing as a matter of corporate policy, rather than having to brief the issue in a formal legal way.
Once you file for arbitration, you will be dealing wit the legal department, which means they will be generally competent but also ethical. They will zealously defend the company's interests, but they will not do anything unethical like retaliating against you in related areas. Lawyers get a bad reputation because the parameters of "zealous defense" (yes that's a technical term) are fairly broad, rather than because they will knowingly color outside the lines.
I think all of us at some time get into a dispute based on what we think the rules ought to be, even though we know the company is being fair within the rules as they exist. Be sure you have a valid claim based on the rules as they are, and that your claim is worth the time and effort you'll invest in it.
Jan 7, 2019, 7:05 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: New York City, United States.
Posts: 2,625
THANK YOU!
I have sued them in small claims court. They waited until the eleventh hour before filing an appearance and then the first thing they did was file a motion to move the matter out of small claims and to a trial level court. They retained very skilled, and expensive, local counsel (which I believe was actually paid for by AA’s insurance carrier even though the claim was for a commercial tort) and the case dragged on for a good long while, through discovery, interrogatories, depositions, etc. until we settled through a pre-trial judicial mediation process conducted by the trial judge (something required prior to jury selection in my state). I was in it for the long-haul with them and got a very satisfactory outcome, but it’s not something I would repeat if it could be avoided.
As for preemption and the ADA, it was something I was a little concerned about even though I could have argued my matter fell within the narrow carve-out in Northwest v. Ginsburg, but AA’s lawyers never went there - I think mostly to avoid having to move the matter to federal court.
I certainly got their attention when I filed my case. If your intention is to file litigation for someone at AA to take notice and listen to your issue, it may work, but be prepared that they may fight you every step of the way.
And, to answer your original question, even though we were on opposing sides of an issue, everyone at AA, including their counsel, were professional and courteous the entire time. It never got personal. There were never any threats made or implied to my EXP status or considerable AAdvantage mile balance, and I continue to fly AA predominantly today. I don’t think you have to worry about any 70’s style mob antics...
As for preemption and the ADA, it was something I was a little concerned about even though I could have argued my matter fell within the narrow carve-out in Northwest v. Ginsburg, but AA’s lawyers never went there - I think mostly to avoid having to move the matter to federal court.
I certainly got their attention when I filed my case. If your intention is to file litigation for someone at AA to take notice and listen to your issue, it may work, but be prepared that they may fight you every step of the way.
And, to answer your original question, even though we were on opposing sides of an issue, everyone at AA, including their counsel, were professional and courteous the entire time. It never got personal. There were never any threats made or implied to my EXP status or considerable AAdvantage mile balance, and I continue to fly AA predominantly today. I don’t think you have to worry about any 70’s style mob antics...
crazy story. In NYC ( I am in Manhattan , so new York county its capped at $5K
outside NYC $3K,
amazing they committed such resources to something without a lot of financial exposure.
Jan 7, 2019, 7:40 pm
#13
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: NYC METRO
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Platinum Elite w/ Amb, UA Gold
Posts: 16
It surprised me too, and similar small claims limits here. As soon as they moved the case out of small claims, the nature and amount of my damage claim in the revised complaint got significantly larger. I think they (mistakenly) thought I would just go away because of the potential of increasing legal costs.
Jan 7, 2019, 8:34 pm
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,233
Others have described their experience in SCC (I particularly seem to remember at least one member filing in California), and at the risk of being accused of hearsay , my recollection was in those cases, it got AA's more serious attention and a relatively swift offer for settlement, before going to court. I suppose it really depends on the details, vis-a-vis ClassyFlyer's experience.
And I would agree that any form of retaliation, except in an example of extreme, and likely repeated, "abuse" (for lack of a better term) of the legal system, would not be in AA's best interest, so you should be fine.
, my recollection was in those cases, it got AA's more serious attention and a relatively swift offer for settlement, before going to court. I suppose it really depends on the details, vis-a-vis ClassyFlyer's experience.And I would agree that any form of retaliation, except in an example of extreme, and likely repeated, "abuse" (for lack of a better term) of the legal system, would not be in AA's best interest, so you should be fine.
Jan 7, 2019, 9:01 pm
#15
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New York City + Vail, CO
Programs: American Airlines Executive Platinum, Marriott Bonvoy Ambassador Elite
Posts: 3,226
As some people may remember, I sued the W New York - Union Square and Starwood in 2015 (see Advice Needed, Hotel Breach of Contract - W New York - Union Square )
I didn't win, but I didn't get my account closed, and I even got a bottle of champagne and a birthday card sent to me as a joke (when it wasn't my birthday).
I did notice that when I was in NYC small claims court, an inordinately high number of people were suing many different airlines (including American), and that all the claims were answered "ready by the court" meaning that arbitration wasn't acceptable to the airlines. I did not hear any of the cases and don't know what they were about.
I didn't win, but I didn't get my account closed, and I even got a bottle of champagne and a birthday card sent to me as a joke (when it wasn't my birthday).
I did notice that when I was in NYC small claims court, an inordinately high number of people were suing many different airlines (including American), and that all the claims were answered "ready by the court" meaning that arbitration wasn't acceptable to the airlines. I did not hear any of the cases and don't know what they were about.