Tiptoeing to the Aadvantage exit yet?
Nov 24, 2018, 4:08 pm
#61
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
I am coming at this from a very different angle than most of you, it seems. I think loyalty is DEAD with all airlines. Not just AA. I was AA EXP from 2002 through 2013 or even 2014, but left AA in 2013 for UA. UA offered better schedule options for me at the time, and I didn't like what DP/Kirby were doing to AA.
As a guy who travels 40+ weeks a year, with usually short trips, a heavy work schedule and a wife and kids at home, my priority is to spend as little time as possible away from home and especially in airports. Any airline that keeps me in airports for hours every week is not one I am willing to fly any longer.
Nov 25, 2018, 12:56 am
#62
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OC, CA
Programs: AA EXP, 2MM, HH Diamond
Posts: 832
If the point of a loyalty program is to promote loyalty, I am struggling to understand why AA thinks their changes will achieve that goal. For me, it’s simple - I am less inclined to be loyal to AA if they take away more than they add for elites. The few things they have added are inconsequential to me while what they have taken away - or the requirements that they have made more stringent - are significant.
one thing that impacts me greatly is no longer earning EQMs or EQDs on AS flights. For me, AS flights are much more convenient for the main routes that I fly (note that the flights I take rarely have AA codeshares). Going out of my way to fly AA metal was inconvenient, but tolerable at $12K EQDs. But $15K EQDs would require more inconvenience than I can tolerate. So if the current level of inconvenience doesn’t get me to EXP anyway, I might as well just move all that spend to AS and go for even less inconvenience.
one thing that impacts me greatly is no longer earning EQMs or EQDs on AS flights. For me, AS flights are much more convenient for the main routes that I fly (note that the flights I take rarely have AA codeshares). Going out of my way to fly AA metal was inconvenient, but tolerable at $12K EQDs. But $15K EQDs would require more inconvenience than I can tolerate. So if the current level of inconvenience doesn’t get me to EXP anyway, I might as well just move all that spend to AS and go for even less inconvenience.
Nov 25, 2018, 10:30 am
#63
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bangkok, Thailand. No longer Palm Coast, FL though still exiled, again, from the Bay Area.
Programs: Only the good ones
Posts: 5,153
No one loves you but your mother and she may be jiving too...
And another free agency thread. "Loyalty?" They only love ya for your money. It's no longer really a loyalty program, more a rebate deal and as such, the rebate fluctuates with the needs of the business, not yours.
I just crossed EXP this week when my HKG-LAX landed. Just made the 12000 EQD's, and with no where near the $12000 spend most people say is the issue. Next year, doubt I'm going to bother even though I could easily satisfy EXP's new requirements for under $4000. But this year I did a couple CX PE JFK-HKG RT's from last year's Black Friday sale, and felt it was a big waste of time and money, thouht there was some fun time thrown in there. Out of SWU's (yes they are usable.) 4 SWU's next year should be easy to use. I'm LT PLT, so I'll just have to deal with the loss...as I do love that 220% RDM's on partner premium tickets I've shifted to. And, the QF FC LAX and HKG CX FC lounges.
I did the UA 1K match and I like some things about them, though the negatives outweigh the positives. Tried, DL and even Frontier. Fly what you need, at a price you can afford and/or justify. I'll fly AA to burn off SWU's and when they have the schedule and price I need. Might even start flying awards, as I still have a half illion RDM's, after using 540k for my son's honeymoon trip to Italy. Anytime awards....oh well. The RDM's don't go as far as they used to. Fortunately, 220% of distance vs 11x the fare is a no brainer.
I just crossed EXP this week when my HKG-LAX landed. Just made the 12000 EQD's, and with no where near the $12000 spend most people say is the issue. Next year, doubt I'm going to bother even though I could easily satisfy EXP's new requirements for under $4000. But this year I did a couple CX PE JFK-HKG RT's from last year's Black Friday sale, and felt it was a big waste of time and money, thouht there was some fun time thrown in there. Out of SWU's (yes they are usable.) 4 SWU's next year should be easy to use. I'm LT PLT, so I'll just have to deal with the loss...as I do love that 220% RDM's on partner premium tickets I've shifted to. And, the QF FC LAX and HKG CX FC lounges.
I did the UA 1K match and I like some things about them, though the negatives outweigh the positives. Tried, DL and even Frontier. Fly what you need, at a price you can afford and/or justify. I'll fly AA to burn off SWU's and when they have the schedule and price I need. Might even start flying awards, as I still have a half illion RDM's, after using 540k for my son's honeymoon trip to Italy. Anytime awards....oh well. The RDM's don't go as far as they used to. Fortunately, 220% of distance vs 11x the fare is a no brainer.
Nov 25, 2018, 2:28 pm
#64
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LHR
Programs: AA EXP/1MM
Posts: 119
Nov 25, 2018, 3:23 pm
#65
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Not sure yet
Programs: Marriott - Lifetime Platinum Premier, AA - CK
Posts: 263
I’m not planning on going anywhere. I haven’t seen anything devalued for me so I’ll hang around. Based on my destinations and travel policies I only have one other choice (UA), but AA is still working well for me.
Nov 25, 2018, 3:32 pm
#66
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
I think you misunderstand the point. The point of their loyalty program is to increase profits. That basically means they want to increase loyalty among high-margin flyers that can be persuaded. They absolutely have no interest in increasing the loyalty of low-margin flyers.
one thing that impacts me greatly is no longer earning EQMs or EQDs on AS flights. For me, AS flights are much more convenient for the main routes that I fly (note that the flights I take rarely have AA codeshares). Going out of my way to fly AA metal was inconvenient, but tolerable at $12K EQDs. But $15K EQDs would require more inconvenience than I can tolerate. So if the current level of inconvenience doesn’t get me to EXP anyway, I might as well just move all that spend to AS and go for even less inconvenience.
Nov 25, 2018, 6:22 pm
#67
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: AA LTP 2MM, Marriott/SPG Rabid Plat w/Ambassador, HHonors Gold
Posts: 696
I was spending ~$50k/year on AA at one point, so perhaps not a particularly high-value flyer, but AA's loyalty program value reductions made me reduce my loyalty accordingly, so I dropped to Plat Pro last year and Plat this year. Annual spend now is probably ~$8k/year on AA. AA probably doesn't miss my $42k, but given the reduction in value on AAdvantage the only time I'll fly them these days is when they have cheap first class and there's no nonstop alternative on another airline. If the miles and status were as valuable as they used to be, I'd probably still be spending ~$50k/year on them.
Nov 25, 2018, 6:40 pm
#68
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,597
if you were spending $55,000 a year , you could now be earning in region of 550,000 miles a year - to have earned that based on previous state of Advantage would have required travelling, 275,000 miles in economy or , 245,000 miles in business or 220,000 miles in 1st class
for a high margin customer, the new scheme seems well targetted for
Regardess, the idea of being loyal to an airline seems to me to be on par with loyalty to a bus service - where it flies to , when and for how much , seems most important to me. No point "tiptoeing" away if it happens that AA is the most logical airline and is AAdvantage is the best value scheme to collect to
for a high margin customer, the new scheme seems well targetted for
Regardess, the idea of being loyal to an airline seems to me to be on par with loyalty to a bus service - where it flies to , when and for how much , seems most important to me. No point "tiptoeing" away if it happens that AA is the most logical airline and is AAdvantage is the best value scheme to collect to
Nov 25, 2018, 8:02 pm
#69
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
I was spending ~$50k/year on AA at one point, so perhaps not a particularly high-value flyer, but AA's loyalty program value reductions made me reduce my loyalty accordingly, so I dropped to Plat Pro last year and Plat this year. Annual spend now is probably ~$8k/year on AA. AA probably doesn't miss my $42k, but given the reduction in value on AAdvantage the only time I'll fly them these days is when they have cheap first class and there's no nonstop alternative on another airline. If the miles and status were as valuable as they used to be, I'd probably still be spending ~$50k/year on them.
With that spend, I would assume you're pretty much always buying J/F, in which case I would guess that the status isn't particularly meaningful. So "buy what's good" makes sense. Just wondering...
Nov 25, 2018, 8:22 pm
#70
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP >3 Million miles,HH Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 2,887
Yup...got to around 50K on AA this year (I am dangerously close to 4M EQM so already lifetime Plat with nothing else to gain from more quality AA time really except the largely derided SWU’s) and decided that was it.
10 (long time EXP 100% gone end of this year)
Add to the list:
- AA has largely given up on ORD as Int’l hub with their own metal
- Customer Service continues to deteriorate
- In flight experience is starting to make UA look good
- Cheaper and better J options out of ORD on other carriers
- I REALLY do not like going to PHL, CLT or DFW to connect to somewhere I can fly direct to
I will still have to fly them occasionally...but those 250K miles a year and 40K in spend will be headed to others...being beholden to one carrier is a losing proposition.
Nov 25, 2018, 10:45 pm
#71
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OC, CA
Programs: AA EXP, 2MM, HH Diamond
Posts: 832
I think you misunderstand the point. The point of their loyalty program is to increase profits. That basically means they want to increase loyalty among high-margin flyers that can be persuaded. They absolutely have no interest in increasing the loyalty of low-margin flyers.
I guess I never thought of $12k a year as “low margin.” Silly me. But the bigger question is, are they really going to attract more high-margin flyers by increasing the requirement from $12k to $15k? How many people who were spending less than $15k are really going to up their spend to reach that limit, compared to how many people are going to reduce their spend by shifting to other programs or becoming mercenaries as a result?
The other thing is that this is the second time in the last couple years they have increased the requirement. Is it going to be $18k in a couple years? I for one am not willing to wait to see if they squeeze me more. I’m becoming a mercenary now.
I feel like basing your analysis on AA vs. AA-at-some-time-in-the past is a mistake. Yes, they've devalued the program from what it used to be. So has everybody else. The right comparison is against what you would do if you didn't pursue AA status. So, compare AAdvantage to either mercenary behavior or going for status at some other airline. I think that's actually what you're doing with AS, but I guess what I'm saying is you shouldn't be thinking "AA took things away" so much as "AA's program is no longer more beneficial to me than AS."
I don't disagree with your strategy/tactics here. But I do want to point out that your description seems to indicate your "loyalty" to AA was always a bit of a chimera. You weren't actually flying them! The AA/AS partnership was a weird setup that had lots of people flying one airline while banking "loyalty" to a totally different airline, and both airlines have made changes specifically intended to iron that out. Sounds like you're moving exactly where they want you to move.
Nov 25, 2018, 11:07 pm
#72
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,597
[left]
I guess I never thought of $12k a year as “low margin.” Silly me. But the bigger question is, are they really going to attract more high-margin flyers by increasing the requirement from $12k to $15k? How many people who were spending less than $15k are really going to up their spend to reach that limit, compared to how many people are going to reduce their spend by shifting to other programs or becoming mercenaries as a result?
I guess I never thought of $12k a year as “low margin.” Silly me. But the bigger question is, are they really going to attract more high-margin flyers by increasing the requirement from $12k to $15k? How many people who were spending less than $15k are really going to up their spend to reach that limit, compared to how many people are going to reduce their spend by shifting to other programs or becoming mercenaries as a result?
$12k may be a low margin - someone who buys 2 x $6,000 1st class or business class tickets is likely to be someone with a v high margin. $12k and flown lots of flights over long distance in economy may actually be quite a low margin customer
Nov 26, 2018, 11:11 am
#73
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
Total revenue has no bearing on the subject. Someone who takes 2 J TATLs for $12k is a very high-margin customer; somebody who hits that same number with a ton of $250 transcons in Q is a very low-margin one.
I doubt that many people will make significant changes to their spending over this. Rather, it will change who is getting upgrades and other benefits. High-spending EXPs will have less competition.
Sure, I'm confident that at some future date the spend requirement will go up again. Soda pop used to cost a nickel, right? But I would note that AA has showed up late to these devaluations historically; I'd expect to see DL push their requirement up, and then UA and finally AA a few years later. And again it's important to mark your comparison not to the past, but to other providers in the present. If there's a better option, great!
Oh, OK, I see now; I was looking at it as more of a direct swap. I can see both approaches as reasonable responses to the problem. As I said before your strategy here strikes me as pretty rational.
The significant difference I see is that the other OW partners don't have domestic US flights. So there's dramatically less overlap in route maps and therefore they aren't competing directly the same way. Also I think (but have no actual detailed knowledge) that there's some more complicated revenue sharing and such going on in the alliance.
Well, like I said, your decision-making seems sensible enough. My only issue was with the idea that AA is promoting loyalty in an absolute sense.
But the bigger question is, are they really going to attract more high-margin flyers by increasing the requirement from $12k to $15k? How many people who were spending less than $15k are really going to up their spend to reach that limit, compared to how many people are going to reduce their spend by shifting to other programs or becoming mercenaries as a result?
Oh, OK, I see now; I was looking at it as more of a direct swap. I can see both approaches as reasonable responses to the problem. As I said before your strategy here strikes me as pretty rational.
But just to be clear, I was flying far more on AA than AS. AS was mostly short-haul, AA was a mix of short-and long-haul. AS just helped me get over the top. When AS flights no longer gave credit for EQDs and EQMs I actually shifted more of the SH travel to AA so that I could hit the $12k limit even though it was far less convenient. Now with the higher limit that spend will all shift back to AS, and I will be a lot more willing to try other airlines as well since I will no longer be shooting for that elusive higher limit.
Nov 26, 2018, 1:20 pm
#74
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
I think you misunderstand the point. The point of their loyalty program is to increase profits. That basically means they want to increase loyalty among high-margin flyers that can be persuaded. They absolutely have no interest in increasing the loyalty of low-margin flyers
I think part of the problem here is the assumption that a "low dollar" flyer is a low margin flyer. There are a lot of flyers, like me that buy expensive refundable fares but may not fly as often. Last year, I barely made gold, but spent nearly $6k. This year, I'm sitting at about $2200, and barely have 13k miles - and that's only because I bought F on one direction. I may not be a high dollar flyer (at the moment), but I'd dare some I'm more profitable than a lot of people - and even at a tier above me. I also buy an annual AC membership, which with my travel dropping off, AA has made a killing on it from me.
I may not fly as some people at the moment, but I'm above average for profitability. But unless you're high profit AND high dollar, neither really means much.
I may still qualify for gold this year - if my 2 December business trips pan out. If it does, I'll likely be in the neighborhood of $4500 EQDs and 25k miles. However, it won't be AAdvantage that's driving my loyalty. It's because it may be better to match out to a different program. But I will say, when I was flying more, the program made me want to push harder for those more marginal trips that weren't as urgent, or take that last MR or 2 to finish off the year. Now, what's the point?
Nov 26, 2018, 1:23 pm
#75
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
I don't see that the requirement change is to attract people. What it is doing is saying that those that do not meet the $15k threshold will no longer get the benefits of EP status
$12k may be a low margin - someone who buys 2 x $6,000 1st class or business class tickets is likely to be someone with a v high margin. $12k and flown lots of flights over long distance in economy may actually be quite a low margin customer
$12k may be a low margin - someone who buys 2 x $6,000 1st class or business class tickets is likely to be someone with a v high margin. $12k and flown lots of flights over long distance in economy may actually be quite a low margin customer