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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Mar 15, 19, 11:21 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. The order is expected to persist through April.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in April, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

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Old Nov 6, 18, 11:11 pm
  #1  
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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...-to-nose-dive/

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...ion-air-crash/
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Old Nov 6, 18, 11:14 pm
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As per FT rules, would you kindly summarise these?
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Old Nov 6, 18, 11:21 pm
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Originally Posted by LondonElite View Post
As per FT rules, would you kindly summarise these?
Faulty AoA reading causes the 737 MAX to automatically and "aggressively" trim nose down while also activating the stick-shaker. Extremely difficult recovery.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 3:11 am
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Not exactly AA related, though.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 5:22 am
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Originally Posted by Djokison View Post
Not exactly AA related, though.
Except that perhaps they have a ton of these out there flying right now.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 7:42 am
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Originally Posted by miadukes View Post
Except that perhaps they have a ton of these out there flying right now.
Since when is 15 or so planes in a fleet size of nearly a thousand "a ton"?
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Old Nov 7, 18, 7:44 am
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Originally Posted by miadukes View Post
Except that perhaps they have a ton of these out there flying right now.
If an AD was issued and/or the planes had to be grounded, sure. This is closer to: “oh btw, watch out for this, guys.”

And they hardly have a ton. They have 16 (17?), a whopping, 1.5% of the fleet.

Not to say this might not be a cause for concern. But just posting 2 links regarding the MAX does not an AA thread make.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 7:55 am
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Originally Posted by Djokison View Post
[left]If an AD was issued and/or the planes had to be grounded, sure. This is closer to: “oh btw, watch out for this, guys.”
"The bulletin comes after a newly-delivered Lion Air 737 Max crashed off the coast of Indonesia on October 29, killing all aboard. The bulletin is expected to say that Indonesian air safety officials have said that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous angle of attack input."

Sounds like a little more than "Oh, hey, watch out guys" to me.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 7:59 am
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Originally Posted by Djokison View Post


If an AD was issued and/or the planes had to be grounded, sure. This is closer to: “oh btw, watch out for this, guys.”

And they hardly have a ton. They have 16 (17?), a whopping, 1.5% of the fleet.

Not to say this might not be a cause for concern. But just posting 2 links regarding the MAX does not an AA thread make.
I beg to differ. The maximum takeoff weight of the 737 MAX 7 is 88.5 tons so 16 * 88.5 leaves us with 1416 tons of 737 MAX which is 1416 too many.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 10:40 am
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Seems like a problem to me as my last flight and my next one are on that plane
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Old Nov 7, 18, 10:49 am
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Originally Posted by spongenotbob View Post
Extremely difficult recovery.
The bulletin was an FYI-be-cognizant-and-follow-procedure one. I don't think this is a fair characterization though. It is a problem, yes, but if it was extremely difficult to recover and dangerous, IMO, the MAX would be grounded.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 11:46 am
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"Runaway Trim" is a very serious situation. The control pitch is almost impossible to overcome even by 2 crew members. However during training much empasis it placed on proper respone to "runaway trim" Almost all type rating and transition training have a runaway trim problem in the flight simulator.
"737 MAX defect" I would not call it a defect.

Lyon Air is going through a period of explosive growth. Was something missed?

I would have no fear of flying on American airlines new 737 MAX, however I will not be flying on one as I cannot fit in Parkers new 29" pitch seat.
( OFF TOPIC: Thank you Doug "spiderman" Parker. Parker is a big guy. I would love to see him or his staff fly cross county in the back. In fact I think all executives sould be made to fly in coach, to experience the service "enhancements." I think if they did we would have a better coach product.)
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Old Nov 7, 18, 2:32 pm
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Originally Posted by abk View Post
Seems like a problem to me as my last flight and my next one are on that plane
Gosh, I hope not...
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Old Nov 7, 18, 2:54 pm
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Originally Posted by abk View Post
Seems like a problem to me as my last flight and my next one are on that plane
My next two flights are on that plane as well. Big problem for me as well.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 3:32 pm
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Originally Posted by arlflyer View Post
"The bulletin comes after a newly-delivered Lion Air 737 Max crashed off the coast of Indonesia on October 29, killing all aboard. The bulletin is expected to say that Indonesian air safety officials have said that Lion Air flight 610 experienced erroneous angle of attack input."

Sounds like a little more than "Oh, hey, watch out guys" to me.
That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

This is a heads up, no more, no less. At this point in time there is no reason to believe a MAX flight is any likelier to drop from the sky than any other plane.
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