Mar 12, 2019, 12:03 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
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6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)
Mar 12, 2019, 6:53 pm
#271
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Mrs. Vker said "If something happens, I will hold them to that statement....they made you take the flight" . Hold on there lady, I ain't on the plane yet.
The airfare is alternate actually cheaper-if it weren't for the change fee.
Mar 12, 2019, 6:58 pm
#272
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It may be a precautionary and ultimately unnecessary decision but it's one the FAA simply has to make if it cares at all about public safety profits be damned, especially when they know they need to so a software patch and it isn't available yet...
Mar 12, 2019, 7:07 pm
#273
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Beyone the snarky "apparently" comment, yes, I'd be stunned if aircraft manufacturers are deliberately adding complexity to flying to sell a plane with a few miles more range or a few more seats. <shrugs>
Mar 12, 2019, 7:11 pm
#274
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I assure you AA pilots are quite aware of this issue right now, and the FCOM is quite explicit. If it pitches down while the pilots are hand flying, anyway, and they certainly know to cut out both stab switches when hand flying. ALPA AA has issued a statement they’d prefer people don’t jump to conclusions and allow the investigators (EAIB - Ethiopia Accident Investigation Bureau and USNTSB, assisted by Boeing) be allowed to carry out their investigation. One thing I’ll not do is second guess the USA pilots flying these aircraft. 
Mar 12, 2019, 7:11 pm
#275
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Stunning arrogance from the FAA and North American airlines. If this had been an Airbus plane or North American airline it would've been grounded 24 hours ago.
It may be a precautionary and ultimately unnecessary decision but it's one the FAA simply has to make if it cares at all about public safety profits be damned, especially when they know they need to so a software patch and it isn't available yet...
It may be a precautionary and ultimately unnecessary decision but it's one the FAA simply has to make if it cares at all about public safety profits be damned, especially when they know they need to so a software patch and it isn't available yet...
Mar 12, 2019, 8:14 pm
#278
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 468
I am going to BGI from JAX with a connection in MIA. The MIA-BGI is on a 737 MAX in both directions. On the days I am flying there is no option to go through CLT instead and there are no other AC that operate on this route. If I changed the date and try to go through CLT there is a hefty change fee and a fare differential. I called AA about this today and asked about my options. At first the CR told me that AA was in the process of grounding the planes. Then he put me on hold. Came back and said that the planes on this route were safe and I had nothing to worry about. I then countered with the fact that if all the planes were safe, why was AA allowing crew to opt out of flying on these AC? He said that he was not aware of this and I should not believe everything I read. I asked if I could get a refund and was told I had a non-refundable ticket that was good for a year to fly on the same route. I countered that with only to fly on the same AC.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
If you were originally ticketed on a different aircraft, then you would be due a refund if you request it.
Mar 12, 2019, 8:29 pm
#279
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I have been ticketed on this route for some time and have noticed AA has swapped equipment a couple of times between the 737 MAX and 737-800. As BGI is an international destination, the ticket would fall under AA's International tariff rules. There is a provision under the international tariff rules that allows for a refund due to an equipment change unacceptable to the customer. Normally, people request a refund for widebody to narrowbody changes, but the rule itself does not require this, simply any change of equipment should suffice.
If you were originally ticketed on a different aircraft, then you would be due a refund if you request it.
If you were originally ticketed on a different aircraft, then you would be due a refund if you request it.
Mar 12, 2019, 9:20 pm
#280
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I know that AA (and the FAA) maintain that there is no factual basis to conclude that a grounding of the 78M is warranted. But to me it seems like AA thinks—if not concludes—that the issue is at least not related to the plane itself (and indeed seems to think that the issue is mostly one of pilot training and capability). At this point, it seems like the consensus of the rest of the world is that no conclusive factual basis is needed to ground the 78M but rather that there needs to be a factual basis for not grounding the plane. Frankly, I think I agree with the rest of the world—although I also understand to some extent that perversely given what has transpired there is more incentive for AA (and the FAA) to double down and insist there needs to be a factual basis for grounding rather than the other way around.
Mar 12, 2019, 9:27 pm
#281
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I assure you AA pilots are quite aware of this issue right now, and the FCOM is quite explicit. If it pitches down while the pilots are hand flying, anyway, and they certainly know to cut out both stab switches when hand flying. ALPA AA has issued a statement they’d prefer people don’t jump to conclusions and allow the investigators (EAIB - Ethiopia Accident Investigation Bureau and USNTSB, assisted by Boeing) be allowed to carry out their investigation. One thing I’ll not do is second guess the USA pilots flying these aircraft.
That all being said, if you aren't avoiding an AA MAX 8 because of the recent issues, you should all be avoiding it because of the inhuman conditions AA has configured them. The UN should be condemning them for human rights violations.
Mar 12, 2019, 10:48 pm
#282
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All I'm going to say is: American Airlines flight 587. AA pilots are good but not flawless.
That all being said, if you aren't avoiding an AA MAX 8 because of the recent issues, you should all be avoiding it because of the inhuman conditions AA has configured them. The UN should be condemning them for human rights violations.
That all being said, if you aren't avoiding an AA MAX 8 because of the recent issues, you should all be avoiding it because of the inhuman conditions AA has configured them. The UN should be condemning them for human rights violations.
Mar 13, 2019, 5:29 am
#283
Join Date: Mar 2019
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New member here. I read through most of the postings. It is nice to see some very rational and experienced postings.
As most of you know, many more airlines/countries grounded the 737 Max8 pending the investigation.
The FAA pushed Boeing to issue a software update that was still in development.
Multiple pilots have reported "issues" with the aircraft.
The similarity between the two crashes is what is striking. The issues with erratic rates of climb (either real or reported by the system) is disturbing.
Do not forget, most pilots flying 737 Max8s were flying 737-800s or something else previously. Under stress, your instincts take over. If you have done one set of processes for a long time and now are sitting in a familiar cockpit, but required to do a different set of processes.....UNDER STRESS...many people will resort to the previous set of processes.
I think they already have the preliminary information from the EI boxes in hand.
As most of you know, many more airlines/countries grounded the 737 Max8 pending the investigation.
The FAA pushed Boeing to issue a software update that was still in development.
Multiple pilots have reported "issues" with the aircraft.
The similarity between the two crashes is what is striking. The issues with erratic rates of climb (either real or reported by the system) is disturbing.
Do not forget, most pilots flying 737 Max8s were flying 737-800s or something else previously. Under stress, your instincts take over. If you have done one set of processes for a long time and now are sitting in a familiar cockpit, but required to do a different set of processes.....UNDER STRESS...many people will resort to the previous set of processes.
I think they already have the preliminary information from the EI boxes in hand.
Mar 13, 2019, 5:55 am
#284
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No they don't. The CVR and FDR boxes are sitting on a shelf in Addis Ababa as the ET aviation authorities conduct a beauty contest to determine which competent investigative authority (UK's CAA or NTSB) should do the readouts.
Mar 13, 2019, 6:24 am
#285
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Posts: 85
All I'm going to say is: American Airlines flight 587. AA pilots are good but not flawless.
That all being said, if you aren't avoiding an AA MAX 8 because of the recent issues, you should all be avoiding it because of the inhuman conditions AA has configured them. The UN should be condemning them for human rights violations.
That all being said, if you aren't avoiding an AA MAX 8 because of the recent issues, you should all be avoiding it because of the inhuman conditions AA has configured them. The UN should be condemning them for human rights violations.
The lack of a few inches of legroom is not exactly cause for calling in the UN....
Maybe tone it down a bit...