Mar 12, 2019, 12:03 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
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6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)
Mar 12, 2019, 12:11 pm
#241
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: AA PLT 3MM
Posts: 1,135
Speaking as someone with zero knowledge myself, I'd say that it's because the MACS system is both useful and necessary to safely operate the aircraft. There are lots of systems in any piece of technology that can be dangerous if used improperly. For example: in the Olden Days, you used to have to pump the brakes in an emergency situation to keep them from locking up. ABS became standard 30-40 years ago, so nobody pumps their brakes now because doing so actually makes things worse. But for the first 20 years after ABS, old people would still pump based on experience.
So, in theory, a false MCAS activation is recoverable. However, put yourself in the position of this happening when you are 1,000 ft above the ground with only a few seconds to work out what is wrong and take the correct action. It might be easier if you had a nice message pop up to say that the AoA sensors weren't operating correctly. Unfortunately, this message is apparently only enabled if the airline has paid Boeing extra to get the AoA display option, even though it's only a software function.
Mar 12, 2019, 12:19 pm
#242
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
A Wikipost has been added with salient facts and links. It will be updated periodically. If anyone has an update or suggested change, please contact JDiver by PM, or use the Moderator notification syste,.
For those who want to keep up with the investigations on the Lion Air and Ethiopian B38M flights, a very good source is Aviation Herald.
Lion Air discussion link
Ethiopian discussion link
At this time,
Boeing issued an amendment to the 737 MAX 8 / B38M operating manual in early November.
The FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive pertaining to the AOA indicator at the beginning of November, with 30 days for USA airlines to comply.
The NTSB and Boeing have sent investigators to assist Ethiopian investigators, and both cockpit recorder and flight data recorder from ET 302.
China grounded all 737 MAX Chinese airline operated aircraft.
The US FAA has declined to ground USA based 737 MAX aircraft. Link to PDF.
The EU has grounded all 737 MAX aircraft.
The APFA AA flight attendants’ union has requested AA ground AA 7M8 / B38M aircraft.
The ALPA AA pilots’ union has asked passengers refrain from jumping to conclusions and allow investigators to do their job.
Link to article: “How to Tell If You’re Flying on a Boeing 737 MAX in North America”, by JT Genter, The Points Guy, 11 March 2019
Below: stabilizer trim disengagement switches
For those who want to keep up with the investigations on the Lion Air and Ethiopian B38M flights, a very good source is Aviation Herald.
Lion Air discussion link
Ethiopian discussion link
At this time,
Boeing issued an amendment to the 737 MAX 8 / B38M operating manual in early November.
The FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive pertaining to the AOA indicator at the beginning of November, with 30 days for USA airlines to comply.
The NTSB and Boeing have sent investigators to assist Ethiopian investigators, and both cockpit recorder and flight data recorder from ET 302.
China grounded all 737 MAX Chinese airline operated aircraft.
The US FAA has declined to ground USA based 737 MAX aircraft. Link to PDF.
The EU has grounded all 737 MAX aircraft.
The APFA AA flight attendants’ union has requested AA ground AA 7M8 / B38M aircraft.
The ALPA AA pilots’ union has asked passengers refrain from jumping to conclusions and allow investigators to do their job.
Link to article: “How to Tell If You’re Flying on a Boeing 737 MAX in North America”, by JT Genter, The Points Guy, 11 March 2019
Below: stabilizer trim disengagement switches
Last edited by JDiver; Mar 12, 2019 at 1:31 pm
Mar 12, 2019, 12:53 pm
#243
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SAV,JAX
Programs: AA-LT Gold 1.2MM ,DL, Marriott LT TITANIUM; HH Gold, AMEX PLT
Posts: 495
I am going to BGI from JAX with a connection in MIA. The MIA-BGI is on a 737 MAX in both directions. On the days I am flying there is no option to go through CLT instead and there are no other AC that operate on this route. If I changed the date and try to go through CLT there is a hefty change fee and a fare differential. I called AA about this today and asked about my options. At first the CR told me that AA was in the process of grounding the planes. Then he put me on hold. Came back and said that the planes on this route were safe and I had nothing to worry about. I then countered with the fact that if all the planes were safe, why was AA allowing crew to opt out of flying on these AC? He said that he was not aware of this and I should not believe everything I read. I asked if I could get a refund and was told I had a non-refundable ticket that was good for a year to fly on the same route. I countered that with only to fly on the same AC.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
Mar 12, 2019, 12:57 pm
#244
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 579
Apparently, the flight attendants for AA want for the Max plane to be grounded for now. https://seekingalpha.com/news/344196...r=1#email_link
Mar 12, 2019, 1:02 pm
#245
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
EASA bans 737MAX, that covers all EU countries...perhaps we should track the reverse at this point and just list the Countries still allowing airlines to fly the 737MAX
Mar 12, 2019, 1:04 pm
#246
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
I am going to BGI from JAX with a connection in MIA. The MIA-BGI is on a 737 MAX in both directions. On the days I am flying there is no option to go through CLT instead and there are no other AC that operate on this route. If I changed the date and try to go through CLT there is a hefty change fee and a fare differential. I called AA about this today and asked about my options. At first the CR told me that AA was in the process of grounding the planes. Then he put me on hold. Came back and said that the planes on this route were safe and I had nothing to worry about. I then countered with the fact that if all the planes were safe, why was AA allowing crew to opt out of flying on these AC? He said that he was not aware of this and I should not believe everything I read. I asked if I could get a refund and was told I had a non-refundable ticket that was good for a year to fly on the same route. I countered that with only to fly on the same AC.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
Mar 12, 2019, 1:04 pm
#247
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
I am going to BGI from JAX with a connection in MIA. The MIA-BGI is on a 737 MAX in both directions. On the days I am flying there is no option to go through CLT instead and there are no other AC that operate on this route. If I changed the date and try to go through CLT there is a hefty change fee and a fare differential. I called AA about this today and asked about my options. At first the CR told me that AA was in the process of grounding the planes. Then he put me on hold. Came back and said that the planes on this route were safe and I had nothing to worry about. I then countered with the fact that if all the planes were safe, why was AA allowing crew to opt out of flying on these AC? He said that he was not aware of this and I should not believe everything I read. I asked if I could get a refund and was told I had a non-refundable ticket that was good for a year to fly on the same route. I countered that with only to fly on the same AC.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
I may try again to get a refund or to get vouchers and then book on Jet Blue. The schedule is not as convenient but they don't fly the 737 MAX.
Does anyone have any other suggestions.
Unless you purchased a changeable fare or within the last 24 hours, there’s not much you can do about AA other than wait and see if AA offers a travel waiver or changes aircraft - e.g. chooses to ground the 24 aircraft it has currently, change your travel to another time or cancel, incurring fees. The latter would be in the case you choose to fly B6. Unless you can persuade someone at AA or the policy changes.
Mar 12, 2019, 1:19 pm
#248
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SAV,JAX
Programs: AA-LT Gold 1.2MM ,DL, Marriott LT TITANIUM; HH Gold, AMEX PLT
Posts: 495
Cannot change dates as it is a timeshare.
Mar 12, 2019, 1:21 pm
#249
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
Well, luckily you have plenty of time so I would give it a few days, try calling back a few more times, and wait and see if AA or the FAA change their tune. Pretty much the rest of the world has grounded the plane at this point.
Mar 12, 2019, 1:30 pm
#250
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
I doubt you’ll have to wait that long for significant announcements - the B38M has been grounded, or they’re cleared by the FAA.
Mar 12, 2019, 1:31 pm
#251
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,222
If you're not scheduled to fly in the next few days, then my suggestion is to relax a bit. I would expect some "resolution" in that time frame after Boeing/regulators/airlines have gotten some initial data from the black boxes and they can make a "more" educated decision about whether the 2 incidents were in any way related to each other or to the general airworthiness of the aircraft. Further, external non-regulatory pressure (e.g., bookings, crew) may even drive AA/WN to (1) remove the planes from service temporarily, or even less severely (2) waive change fees and possibly fare differences for rebookings.
Last edited by ijgordon; Mar 12, 2019 at 1:41 pm Reason: Oh, guess I'm a little slow on pressing "post"!
Mar 12, 2019, 1:35 pm
#252
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
USA and Canada. Congressional pressure is also on.
Mar 12, 2019, 1:57 pm
#253
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Programs: AAdvantage PP
Posts: 13,913
Either the a/c is going to be cleared to fly or grounded within the next few days. There's too much pressure for the FAA not to make a definitive issue. Even if grounded that could be short-lived. Boeing will spare no expense to get this a/c clear to fly because the financial aftermath from airlines suing Boeing (or invoking certain contract clauses for damage) will be huge. Not to mention it's reputation.
Mar 12, 2019, 2:04 pm
#254
Join Date: Nov 2010
Programs: AA PLT 3MM
Posts: 1,135
737 Flight controls
For anyone who is interested, here is a slide set on the 737 flight control systems: https://www.slideshare.net/theoryce/...light-controls
The bits relevant to elevator trim are around the middle. Note that this is for the 737 NG, so doesn't mention MCAS which was only added on the 737 MAX, but everything else is I believe still applicable.
The bits relevant to elevator trim are around the middle. Note that this is for the 737 NG, so doesn't mention MCAS which was only added on the 737 MAX, but everything else is I believe still applicable.
Mar 12, 2019, 2:12 pm
#255
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MIA
Posts: 298
In theory, the MCAS system is a valuable safety aid to prevent the aircraft from stalling. It is designed to trim the nose down before the aircraft stalls if an excessive AoA is reached. However, the problem is that it is vulnerable to being mistriggered if an AoA sensor itself fails in a mode that causes it to read high
edited to add - Hearing now that redundant MCAS sensors is what the software update aims to fix. It is simply unfathomable how it made it into production, this is Engineering 101.
Last edited by SouthernCross; Mar 12, 2019 at 3:30 pm