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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Mar 10, 19, 1:21 pm
  #61  
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
If there was an ordered shut down, my guess is that AA would start to shift fleet aircraft around - including halting all future MD-80 retirements, bringing viable MD-80s back from the desert.
That would make my week.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 1:27 pm
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This plus the Oasis cancellation fiasco going on has me so happy my travels this coming week are in seat 1A on the E175
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:17 pm
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I don’t care what’s going on but I’m refusing to set foot on a max until further notice. I’ll take longer trips, lose upgrades, don’t care. Something is seriously wrong here and I’m not risking my life on this aircraft
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:21 pm
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Both of the 7M8s that crashed were heavily loaded with high passenger count. As mentioned earlier here - maybe unbalanced. And I don't always buy the "fix with software" argument.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:28 pm
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Originally Posted by cova View Post
Both of the 7M8s that crashed were heavily loaded with high passenger count. As mentioned earlier here - maybe unbalanced. And I don't always buy the "fix with software" argument.
not sure I understand this comment. Did these airlines have passengers sitting in the aisle or standing in the lavatory without assigned seats?

No

yes they might have filled every seat but the argument they overloaded with passengers is non sensical. If the 737 is built with 150 seats the airline should be able to put 150 butts into those seats. The aircraft in both instances took off from the ground without issue and flew for at least 6 mins

you really arguing after being in the air for 6 mins too many people in the manufacturer approved seating config brought these craft down?

if you believe that I’ve got something to sell you
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Nuhusky View Post


not sure I understand this comment. Did these airlines have passengers sitting in the aisle or standing in the lavatory without assigned seats?

No

yes they might have filled every seat but the argument they overloaded with passengers is non sensical. If the 737 is built with 150 seats the airline should be able to put 150 butts into those seats. The aircraft in both instances took off from the ground without issue and flew for at least 6 mins

you really arguing after being in the air for 6 mins too many people in the manufacturer approved seating config brought these craft down?

if you believe that I’ve got something to sell you
The Lyon Air flight had 189 people on a 737.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:38 pm
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My 150 number was for an example to make the point that if 150 seats are on the plane then the airline can sell 150 tickets. Just like if 189 seats are on the plane why can’t they sell 189. I’d imagine beoing installed 189 people and if lion air made a modification after delivery then that’s a different story. Doesn’t explain today’s crash
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:38 pm
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Originally Posted by cova View Post
The Lyon Air flight had 189 people on a 737.
And the ET flight had 157+crew. That's about the average flight load for a 738 for any US 3 carrier. (though AA is attempting to average that up with 172 seats on theirs).
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:45 pm
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Does it also make a difference when the avg person in either Asia or Africa, weigh quite a bit less than an avg person in US, like below 120lb versus above 150lb?

Last edited by Happy; Mar 10, 19 at 2:52 pm
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:45 pm
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Originally Posted by cova View Post
Both of the 7M8s that crashed were heavily loaded with high passenger count. As mentioned earlier here - maybe unbalanced. And I don't always buy the "fix with software" argument.
Disagree with the second one having a high passenger count. 157 + crew. The flight was also on a two hour trip and not heavily laden with fuel.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:48 pm
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Originally Posted by cova View Post
The Lyon Air flight had 189 people on a 737.
This is not really that remarkable. Ryanair flies a fleet of more than 400 738s, all with 189 seats and routinely fills them. They've never had a fatal accident to my knowledge.

Would I personally choose to fly on a 189 seat 738? No, however that's based on personal preference/comfort, not safety.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 2:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Happy View Post
Does it also make a difference when the avg person in either Asia or Africa, weigh quite a bit less than an avg person in US, like below 120lb to above 150lb?
Only about 1/3 of the passengers were of African origin (which means nothing). Lots of Canadians, Italians, Europeans and Brits.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 4:35 pm
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Originally Posted by cova View Post
The Lyon Air flight had 189 people on a 737.
What's your point? JT's 739s seat even more, over 200 I believe. And despite their spotty record, they'd actually had a few good years prior to the October crash.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 4:38 pm
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Originally Posted by Nuhusky View Post
I don’t care what’s going on but I’m refusing to set foot on a max until further notice. I’ll take longer trips, lose upgrades, don’t care. Something is seriously wrong here and I’m not risking my life on this aircraft
Can't say I disagree. Boeing is rather lucky that the two crashes were an Asian and African airline. If either one was an AA or UA plane, the max would've already been grounded no questions asked.

I feel so bad for ET - they're a fantastic airline and I hope they recover from this. Not to mention the delicious Doro Wot at the cloud nine lounge - maybe my favorite lounge meal ever.
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Old Mar 10, 19, 4:43 pm
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Originally Posted by no1cub17 View Post
I feel so bad for ET - they're a fantastic airline and I hope they recover from this.
+1. Africa's best, easily.
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