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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Jun 28, 19, 9:38 am
  #646  
 
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Originally Posted by AndyAA View Post
Would AA have to wait for every aviation regulatory agency under the sun to certify the software fix, or just start flying the planes again domestically once it receives FAA approval and goes through the steps necessary for the return to flight?
Don’t know if they do. But they do need people’s butts in those seats.
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Old Jun 28, 19, 11:49 am
  #647  
 
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Wonder when we will start seeing the 737-10 start flying around (aka the 737-Max8)
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Old Jun 28, 19, 11:53 am
  #648  
 
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
Wonder when we will start seeing the 737-10 start flying around (aka the 737-Max8)
Ha. Trump was right on this. Rebranding would be the smart thing to do.
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Old Jun 28, 19, 2:12 pm
  #649  
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
Wonder when we will start seeing the 737-10 start flying around (aka the 737-Max8)
The “Super 80” is retiring. Maybe there’s a “Super 737” in our future?

(After the Lockheed L-188 Electra debacle, the AA Electra was renamed “Electra II”.
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Old Jun 28, 19, 4:58 pm
  #650  
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...hour-engineers

Bloomberg - Technology
Boeing's 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
By Peter Robison, June 28, 2019, 1:46 PM PDT

It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors...

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

Rabin, the former software engineer, recalled one manager saying at an all-hands meeting that Boeing didn’t need senior engineers because its products were mature. “I was shocked that in a room full of a couple hundred mostly senior engineers we were being told that we weren’t needed,” said Rabin, who was laid off in 2015.
America’s favorite form of cost-cutting finally comes home to roost.

Last edited by JDiver; Jun 28, 19 at 10:35 pm Reason: Rule 7. Linking To Content On Other Websites
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Old Jun 28, 19, 5:21 pm
  #651  
 
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Originally Posted by spongenotbob View Post
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...hour-engineers

America’s favorite form of cost-cutting finally comes home to roost.
Troubling.....
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Old Jun 28, 19, 6:16 pm
  #652  
 
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Originally Posted by jcatman View Post
Troubling.....
You're being too kind here...
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Old Jun 28, 19, 6:24 pm
  #653  
 
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Originally Posted by spongenotbob View Post
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...hour-engineers

America’s favorite form of cost-cutting finally comes home to roost.
While I don’t like to equate an individual’s pay with the quality of work they do (because in my experience there’s millions out there who are way overpaid for the crap they produce) this is disturbing and clearly shows the direction the current management of Boeing has taken. Boeing sadly appears to have peaked with the 777 and the products offered up through the mid to late 90s.
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Old Jun 28, 19, 10:51 pm
  #654  
 
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/b...stigation.html

DOJ has expanded it's 737max inspection to include a 787 factory in South Carolina. Specifically cites shoddy workmanship found by an AA inspector
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Old Jun 28, 19, 10:54 pm
  #655  
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IMO, they merely worked to design specs set by Boeing engineers. The design specs themselves were flawed. To wit, MCAS software that used a single angle of attack indicator, instead of using signals from both and processing them through a comparator. Ask any pilot which is preferable and why.

Add the “extras” - such as the angle of attack sensors disagree warning, sold to WN, without disclosing the feature was not operable unless they also purchased the angle of attack indication in the primary flight display.

Not to mention the US Air Force twice stopped accepting Being 767-200ER based KC-46 tanker because loose parts and tools left behind were being found in various spaces on delivery. After initial aircraft were found to have out of spec wiring problems requiring about a quarter of a billion dollars in wiring redesign.

Did I mention “lithium batteries”, or the North Charleston Dreamliner production facility alleged safety issues?

In the end the MAX will have a long and safe life. At the cost of nearly 350 lives, billions of dollars in cost to airlines and to Boeing, and a huge loss of confidence in Boeing’s vaunted aircraft design capabilities. Great cost savings there, guys! As I’ve said before, IMO Boeing needs a quantum corporate culture change and Muilenburg, as the guy with the desk where the buck stops, should go, a body of Boeing and customer people should be formed to make reform recommendations. If the Board lets this go by, they’ll be ignoring their fiduciary duties.
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Old Jun 29, 19, 1:59 am
  #656  
 
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Originally Posted by Cledaybuck View Post
I don't think AA would need anyone except the FAA to approve it to fly domestically. That said, I think Boeing would like to get approval from at least the US, Canada, and Europe simultaneously.
I think this is probably true legally, but given the flak that the FAA received for not grounding the Max as fast as everyone else, I do not think it would be wise for the FAA to approve it again, and airlines to fly it domestically while it is still not certified in the rest of the world. This would even further undermine the FAA's credibility and probably global trust in Boeing too.
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Old Jun 29, 19, 5:52 am
  #657  
 
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Originally Posted by Cledaybuck View Post
I don't think AA would need anyone except the FAA to approve it to fly domestically. That said, I think Boeing would like to get approval from at least the US, Canada, and Europe simultaneously.
I think that any routes that go through Canadian or Mexican airspace (ie routes like ORD-BOS and sometimes ORD-SEA, MIA-SAN, and anything to ANC) would require the approval of those aviation authorities; I remember noting that the Canadian ban at least prohibited the MAX in our airspace. Certainly an issue AA could avoid by choosing which routes they use the MAX on or by choosing the flight path to stay out of Canada/Mexico, but a consideration. And of course it wouldn’t be a good look for AA to be flying a plane that has not been approved throughout the developed world due to a major safety concern. And no MAX on international routes to countries that haven’t approved it, most likely.
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Old Jun 29, 19, 9:06 am
  #658  
 
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Originally Posted by spongenotbob View Post
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...hour-engineers



America’s favorite form of cost-cutting finally comes home to roost.
(Re: $9/hr outsource article cited above.)


As a well seasoned software engineer with over 20 years in the game this really cheeses me off to no end. Spend a little more upfront, or 10x more on the backend when things go wrong.

Built to spec or not, it can still be bad internally, whether the specs were wrong or right.

While not on the scale of this Boeing deal, the company I work for did something similar but trusted a 3rd party vendor when they selected one of their products for use. This started about 3 years ago, and it was “going to save money because we can integrate this into our software and launch within 3 months.”

I warned them at the time that it was a stupid idea and concept, and that it would cost significantly more in the end. I also recommended that it be built in-house, and 2 people would have it launched in 6 months.

It just launched at the beginning of this year, and so far has had about $550k (not including employee wages on our end to integrate it all) with no end in sight. Not to mention it has crashed our production facilities twice, due to licensing update issues when it “called home” for automated checks buried within its code.

We’re also only utilizing about 15% of its capabilities, as we came to find out that the rest of the features we were sold were useless.

Just last month it was decided to suspend offering these features, stabilize clients whom already have them, and... rebuild in-house.

Taking the cost paid for said software out of the equation completely, the wages for just our side spent on this are 3-4x more than what it would have been to just write it in-house. Wasted resources, wasted money, all to save a few bucks. Instead, it overall it ended up being almost 7x more expensive thus far.

This isn’t just a Boeing problem, it’s a problem at most major companies. The few times it does actually pan out does not make up for the long-term cost from poor decisions. In Boeings case for just this instance, it certainly will not make up for the loss of life, let alone the financial cost.
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Old Jun 29, 19, 9:20 am
  #659  
 
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Fun headline about the $9 per hour outsource workers but within the article is this gem:

Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines disaster in March. The Chicago-based planemaker also said it didn’t rely on either firm for another software issue disclosed after the crashes: a cockpit warning light that wasn’t working for most buyers.
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Old Jun 29, 19, 9:54 am
  #660  
 
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Boeing also said the MAX8 was safe. Maybe that portion was in-house, maybe not. Would be bad PR for Boeing to try and scapegoat a thirdparty contractor at this point, IMO. So who knows for 100% fact now.
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