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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: JDiver
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.

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Old Jun 18, 19, 2:31 pm
  #601  
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
IAG (BA, EI, IB, etc.) has just announced an order for 200 Boeing 737 MAX 8,9 and 10 at the Paris Air Show....
I wonder how much of a price discount they received ...
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Old Jun 18, 19, 2:52 pm
  #602  
 
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Originally Posted by serfty View Post
I wonder how much of a price discount they received ...
I was thinking the same thing...and I bet the contract language is a bit "looser" than the normal contract language in terms of getting out of the contract, if the issues aren't fixed within a suitable period of time.
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Old Jun 18, 19, 3:17 pm
  #603  
 
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It would seem the perfect time to get the best deal ever if one was in the market for these new planes. And whatever the discounts, Boeing should be thrilled to offer them.
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Old Jun 19, 19, 10:53 am
  #604  
 
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Originally Posted by iadisgreat View Post
Meh, it'll be safe when it comes back. And given people's stated desire to book away from them (though I doubt it will actually materialize), the upgrade should be easy for the short term.
Why only for the short term, you mean until the nosedives start again?
I will also be avoiding the aircraft. If AA buys more, or that IAG order goes through, I am out of OW for sure.

Last edited by nk15; Jun 19, 19 at 11:48 am
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Old Jun 19, 19, 10:55 am
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Once the fix is done and the pilots agree then they will need to do some serious PR work to explain to the general public exactly why it's really safe
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Old Jun 19, 19, 11:58 am
  #606  
 
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Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....
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Old Jun 19, 19, 12:09 pm
  #607  
 
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Originally Posted by nk15 View Post
Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....
To be fair, according to the article, it seems the head of the APA (which represents AA pilots) is the one saying simulator training "poses logistical issues." Additionally, the union says Boeing "has said that simulator training is not necessary, and is recommending a mandatory computer-based course that explains MCAS and could be completed at a pilot’s home in about an hour, according to pilot unions."

Boeing has said that simulator training is not necessary, and is recommending a mandatory computer-based course that explains MCAS and could be completed at a pilot’s home in about an hour, according to pilot unions.
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Old Jun 19, 19, 12:10 pm
  #608  
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Originally Posted by nk15 View Post
Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....
They’ve learned something, but arguably not enough.

Part of the issue is simulator cost. The entirety of AA offers one static simulator and one MIA based dynamic sim to be delivered later this year, iirc. Airlines don’t like to buy non-productive expensive equipment, aircraft manufacturers don’t make much on them, there’s no economy of scale.

AA pilots are pushing for simulator training, and it looks like AA pilots will at least get duty time to book MIA sim time. (A sim at DFW? A shared sim or two for AA and WN in the DAL-DFW area might be worth thinking about, even if that’s not Kosher at all. Maybe a division of Boeing or a third party operator open to all airlines with MAX aircraft?
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Old Jun 19, 19, 12:11 pm
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Originally Posted by nk15 View Post
Unbelievable….Boeing is fighting simulator training for the new "fixed" MCAS, and want one hour of ipad training instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/sully-sullenb...172033182.html

I don't think they have learned anything from all this, or they really care about safety....
What a complete load of fecal matter.
Boeing deserves every ounce of bad PR and liability thrown at them at this point for this.
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Old Jun 19, 19, 12:15 pm
  #610  
 
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
AA pilots are pushing for simulator training, and it looks like AA pilots will at least get duty time to book MIA sim time. (A sim at DFW? A shared sim or two for AA and WN in the DAL-DFW area might be worth thinking about, even if that’s not Kosher at all. Maybe a division of Boeing or a third party operator open to all airlines with MAX aircraft?
The linked article makes it seem as if the president of the APA, which represents AA pilots, isn't really pushing for simulator training before the planes start flying, saying that such a course would pose "logistical issues." Rather, "Carey said pilots could get computer- and video-based training before the plane returns to service and then all could get into simulators within 10 months."
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Old Jun 19, 19, 12:25 pm
  #611  
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Originally Posted by flyingeph12 View Post
The linked article makes it seem as if the president of the APA, which represents AA pilots, isn't really pushing for simulator training before the planes start flying, saying that such a course would pose "logistical issues." Rather, "Carey said pilots could get computer- and video-based training before the plane returns to service and then all could get into simulators within 10 months."
Yep, this is what I was referring to. There’s limited simulator availability. There won’t be a MAX pilot whose brain won’t be seared by the heat of learning and knowing every aspect of MCAS and associated issues, and I believe the same of UA and WN pilots. But I think the simulator time is valued and useful.
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Old Jun 19, 19, 12:47 pm
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There's also this article that discusses the concern that some pilots may not be physically strong enough.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/physica...ht-11560937879

At what point is enough actually enough and these flying death traps are done for good?
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Old Jun 19, 19, 1:55 pm
  #613  
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Originally Posted by bchandler02 View Post
There's also this article that discusses the concern that some pilots may not be physically strong enough.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/physica...ht-11560937879

At what point is enough actually enough and these flying death traps are done for good?
That’s a question applicable for every aircraft, every pilot.

I personally opine your statement of “flying death traps” is hyperbolic, to say the least. If you’re an aeronautical engineer or designer, or have your ATR rating, I’m all ears.

Actual flying death traps:

De Havilland DH-106 Comet. The critical design flaw in these meant rapid metal fatigue induced by the pressurization cycles experienced by all aircraft caused tears originating at the corners of the square windows that resulted in disintegration in flight.

The extensive investigation and redesign allowed a redesigned DH-106 aircraft, including the successful Royal Navy Nimrod and the Comet 4C. AA never operated these, but a number of others did.

Lockheed L-188 Electra. This aircraft had a design flaw where at particular engine RPMs and conditions the wings would be shaken off (“"whirl mode flutter" issue) and the aircraft would crash. AA did operate these, and in fact was the launch customer.

Lockheed rectified the problem by performing a “LEAP” 20 day refit to all existing aircraft; the redesign was included for all new hulls. Some Electra’s are still flying, mostly as freighters or as the many P-3C Orion naval patrol aircraft. (They were popular for flying into / out of “hot and high” airports like TV!, even when their heyday was over, and Lockheed experienced a net loss with the Electra itself. A good lesson for Boeing?)

If the 3M8s were “flying death traps” and believed to be so by their pilots - some of who do have aeronautical training - they’d refuse to fly them, because they’d feel under death sentence for their passengers and themselves.

Certainly, you and anyone else with long lasting concerns should exercise choice and avoid flying on this aircraft. But I do suspect you’ll be among a minority of the flying public.

Safe travels.
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Old Jun 19, 19, 2:54 pm
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While your historical knowledge is impressive, the fact that you have to go back to the 1950s to find planes that were more dangerous than the MAX says a lot.

The point is that we have come a long way in the past 60-70 years, and air travel is a lot safer than it used to be. If the MAX is a regression to the safety levels of the 1950s, then it has to be permanently grounded, because that level of safety is simply no longer acceptable.
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Old Jun 19, 19, 3:14 pm
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
While your historical knowledge is impressive, the fact that you have to go back to the 1950s to find planes that were more dangerous than the MAX says a lot.

The point is that we have come a long way in the past 60-70 years, and air travel is a lot safer than it used to be. If the MAX is a regression to the safety levels of the 1950s, then it has to be permanently grounded, because that level of safety is simply no longer acceptable.
To be fair, I think JDiver's point is that some of the planes in the 1950s were actual "flying death traps." The 7M8 is not one of those. So I actually don't think it really says anything about the safety of the 7M8 to say that they are not the flying death traps of the 1950s.

I do share your general discomfort with the 7M8, however, and I am not confident that it is as safe as other planes out there today, despite what Boeing and AA pilots say. While that might not be completely rational, I'm probably going to go out of my way to avoid it, at least for a while.
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