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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Mar 12, 2019, 12:03 pm
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see

American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through...
Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on Americans fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Heralds Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system. Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The black boxes (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident, the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines operation, and other airlines overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy how to tell if youre flying a 737 MAX 8 article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Old Mar 21, 2019, 5:51 pm
  #496  
 
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Originally Posted by cedric
Interesting to see the different approaches taken by the major North American carriers.
I summarized the data in the AC forum, but it's worth reposting here.

AC & AA - purchased both options
Southwest - purchased disagree alert & separately installed AOA sensors.
WestJet - only disagree alert. No AOA sensors.
UA - did not select either

From the linked article above:

Yikes. That's not a good narrative. The Lion Air & Ethiopian pilots also used other data to fly their plane. What else did UA skimp out on? Nice to see AA taking a lead in safety, in this instance.
Originally Posted by flyingeph12
No.

But then again, are the AoA sensors and disagree alert "safety options"? If they are, then it seems really bad to me that Boeing would sell those as options instead of including them as standard. Then again, apparently Boeing sells add-ons like extra rafts and fire extinguishers, so... (To be clear, I would be interested in what Airbus does as well, which the NYT article conveniently leaves out.)

In any event, all I was trying to convey is that any credit (or blame) for "add-ons" for the 7M8 may be more appropriately placed on prior management instead of the current one.
Why are there so many choices for such a critical system? Shouldn't functionally every 7M8 be the same as the next one off the line, especially in core flying functions?


Originally Posted by cova
All this aside (with options, training, etc) - but the net is - why does the 7M8 need MCAS in the first place? To compensate for design issues. Older 738's don't have MCAS and don't crash like the LyonAir and ET planes. One of these options is just an alert.

So you are flying a new aircraft that is suppose to fly automatically, but you really need 3 well trained pilots to fly the plane so if a problem arises they can switch to manual, and use their skills to recover from a stall or dive.
This is what I've been saying all along. The 7M8 has a design flaw (or limitation, if you want to call it that). MCAS is a bandaid onto a major problem. The effectiveness of that bandaid is currently up for debate, and not trending in the right direction.
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Old Mar 21, 2019, 8:13 pm
  #497  
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Posted earlier on Reuters

MARCH 21, 2019 / 9:36 PM / UPDATED 34 MINUTES AGO

American Airline pilots expect to test 737 MAX software fix in Boeing simulator

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1R306I
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Old Mar 23, 2019, 7:24 pm
  #498  
 
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Runaway trim

Originally Posted by kimChee
Here's a video of older 737 simulator with runaway stabilizer - starts just before 3 minutes in -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPRuFHR1co

Think for a minute (no you don't have that long...) - how fast can the automation incorrectly trim and put you in a nose-down/high speed position. What's the best reaction time one could expect from a pilot to recognize what is happening and take the appropriate action?
Then, think - now you've got to manually crank the trim back, while still flying the plane manually and taking care of everything else at low altitude --- I'd sure like to see a simulator video of this situation with the Lion or Ethiopian situation and see how reasonable it is to expect a flight crew to deal with this situation....
An excellent find.

One of the early drills in the ancient Lear 24 was a runaway trim. Almost all check rides in the 1970 had a runaway trim exercise. A recent comment from my airline pilot friends was: that a runaway trim problem was a common drill in the flight simulator.
I was shocked to find out that pilots did not certify for a type rating in a 737 in a simulator and that there is not a 737 max simulator for training. Even in the 1990 a type rating could be earned in the flight simulator. A very good friend who is still flying corporate attends Flight Safety at least 3- 4 times a year.
Procedures training in many aspects of aircraft operation is possible on a PC. Why no simulator course?

As your video clearly shows: Hand cranking a manual trim wheel does take effort to a control pitch down. and it does take time to crank the trim wheel. I believe the Boeing engineers thought that multiple systems failures causing the MACS to pitch down would be extremely rare. An existing procedure was covered in the aircraft manual and drilled in the simulator a " runaway trim" would cover the MACS trim runaway. But recent findings indicate that MACS nose down trim does not react exactly like "runaway trim" with a constant nose down action.
The question that remains for me is what failures triggered the MACS on the Ethiopian 737 MAX. The Lyon Air MACS actuation seemed to have occurred after a miss diagnosis by the maintenance department and the failure of the previous crew to pass on the corrective action they took to correct the problem on the flight the night before. After a flight like that most carries would "red tag" the aircraft until a test flight.

The Ethiopian Airways also in for inspection the night before the final flight. I hope those involved in the investigations can get to the cause of the failures and do not get caught up in the legal- criminal blame game. I trust those involved in the design, training and repair of the 737 MAX with be open and truthful about what was that operational status and what " adjustments and inspection" was done before the final flights.

I am doing what I said I would never do... Make a conjecture before all the facts are in. In my case a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. So forget what I said.... Cheers.
The crash of the 2 new aircraft was a true tragedy. My condolences go out to the families that lost their loved ones.
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Old Mar 23, 2019, 7:37 pm
  #499  
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Originally Posted by cedric
Is there anything to suggest that post-merger aircraft orders are lacking safety options?
There are 24 737 MAX 8 in service (well, parked) with AA at this time, and 76 on order. AA ordered both the disagree lamp and the AOA sensors. Essentially, one task of the MCAS made “feel” adjustments so 737-800 Pilots would feel “at home” flying the w&b dissimilar MAX 8.

The other post-merger Boeing narrowbody aircraft are 737-823s, which don’t require the MCAS software to make it feel like you’re flying a 737-800.
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Old Mar 24, 2019, 12:21 pm
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WWW.CNN.COM
March 24th, 2019 2:00PM EDT

American Airlines is canceling 90 flights a day because of 737 Max grounding
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 4:57 pm
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WN is sending their MAX's to the desert for storage. What is AA doing with theirs?
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 9:36 pm
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The FAA and Boeing will snap to attention when one of these planes finally crashes in the US or Europe. The hypothesis that the crashes were the result of inferior pilot training is offensive. Both planes were brand new.
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Old Mar 25, 2019, 9:40 pm
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Originally Posted by NauticalWheeler
... The hypothesis that the crashes were the result of inferior pilot training is offensive. Both planes were brand new.
Weird.
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 2:54 am
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Originally Posted by cova
WN is sending their MAX's to the desert for storage. What is AA doing with theirs?

Thanks to FlightRadar24, here's a complete list by airline.


https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/w...ax-are-stored/
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 7:52 am
  #505  
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Interesting, was AA able to ferry them without pax after the grounding? Wouldn't otherwise expect to see so many in TUL...
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 8:01 am
  #506  
 
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Originally Posted by ijgordon
Interesting, was AA able to ferry them without pax after the grounding? Wouldn't otherwise expect to see so many in TUL...
Yes, there were ferry flights to TUL showing on flightaware the days after the grounding for max planes.
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 8:21 am
  #507  
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Originally Posted by ijgordon
Interesting, was AA able to ferry them without pax after the grounding? Wouldn't otherwise expect to see so many in TUL...
The grounding order permitted ferry and repositioning flights under certain conditions including no passengers onboard.
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 8:34 am
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Originally Posted by NauticalWheeler
The FAA and Boeing will snap to attention when one of these planes finally crashes in the US or Europe. The hypothesis that the crashes were the result of inferior pilot training is offensive. Both planes were brand new.
Well given that the co-pilot had 200 total hours, the question is not illegitimate.
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 8:38 am
  #509  
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer
Well given that the co-pilot had 200 total hours, the question is not illegitimate.
This is false. The FO has 350 hours.
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Old Mar 26, 2019, 8:48 am
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Originally Posted by cmd320
This is false. The FO has 350 hours.
Precisely. And when the CEO of ET speaks only of the pilot's vast experience, it makes you wonder.
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