Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > American Airlines | AAdvantage
Reload this Page >

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

  Wikipost is Locked   Hide Wikipost
Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: JDiver
Wiki Link
This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

WELCOME, MODERATOR GUIDELINES
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk!

Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)

All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.

We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.

As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:

1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.


3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.

4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.

5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.

6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.

Print Wikipost

Reply

Old Mar 13, 19, 1:19 pm
  #346  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,046
The MD80s I believe have lots of availability mid week, Saturdays and Sunday AMs. Lots of them always parked at DFW on the weekend. They can take some of the flying with the 738-800 and even a few of the 75L doing the rest. I don't see massive cancellations. It was only 24 a/c. The key days will be Mon, Thurs, Fridays and Sunday afternoons.
newyorkgeorge is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 1:25 pm
  #347  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: DCA
Posts: 6,210
Looking at schedule availability out of MIA now, things look like a real mess. Should get interesting. This is the kind of thing that years of fleet rationalization and squeezing every seat cannot predict. There's now no slack in the system.
arlflyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 1:34 pm
  #348  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (1 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 2,222
Originally Posted by econometrics View Post
I wouldn't trust AA's system for showing any kind of realistic departure delays or cancellations.

Besides that, cancellations really are happening. So I would wait a few more min, then call back.

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1105904570260221956
My Friday flight on 7M8 is still showing as on time, not cancelled yet. I am monitoring my flight, and any announcements from AA. Without those looks like at this moment AAgents have to charge me a penalty and fare difference if I want to change a flight.
AlwaysAisle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 1:38 pm
  #349  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: LAX
Posts: 2,688
I loved the S80, but I'd feel safer in a 737-Max that was grounded for political reasons than I would in an aircraft that spent years in the desert before being hastily revived.
lobo411 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 1:42 pm
  #350  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 112
Exclamation 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

Wondering what AA will do with all their scheduled 737 MAX flights now? Do they have enough metal to swap out? Any ideas?
girlsmom4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:00 pm
  #351  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Wanting First. Buying First.
Programs: Lifetime Executive Diamond Platinum VIP with Braniff, Eastern, Midway, National & Pan Am
Posts: 5,033
Originally Posted by lobo411 View Post
I loved the S80, but I'd feel safer in a 737-Max...
Safer? Perhaps.

More cramped and uncomfortable onboard? Definitely!
lobo411 likes this.
Herb687 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:02 pm
  #352  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: DL GM, AAdvantage EXECPLAT, Hyatt Plat, HHonors Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 5,886
So ridiculous agents can't use their brains and waive change fees at this point, I mean come on. How could AA reprimand them when the president ordered these planes grounded?
AANYC1981 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:05 pm
  #353  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Wanting First. Buying First.
Programs: Lifetime Executive Diamond Platinum VIP with Braniff, Eastern, Midway, National & Pan Am
Posts: 5,033
Originally Posted by newyorkgeorge View Post
The MD80s I believe have lots of availability mid week, Saturdays and Sunday AMs. Lots of them always parked at DFW on the weekend. They can take some of the flying with the 738-800 and even a few of the 75L doing the rest. I don't see massive cancellations. It was only 24 a/c. The key days will be Mon, Thurs, Fridays and Sunday afternoons.
You think that AA has the same number of pilots current on the MD-80 as they had a year or two ago?

It's likely that M80s otherwise scheduled to sit on the ramp can backfill for some 7M8 cancellations and associated equipment swaps but unlikely that there will be sufficient M80 typed and current pilots with hours remaining in the month to utilize those parked airframes to their full potential.
Herb687 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:08 pm
  #354  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by AANYC1981 View Post
So ridiculous agents can't use their brains and waive change fees at this point, I mean come on. How could AA reprimand them when the president ordered these planes grounded?
Well, it may operate as scheduled, swap planes, or make up time in the air, or any of the laundry list of excuses I've encountered when faced with certainty of an outcome.
autdi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:08 pm
  #355  
Moderator: American AAdvantage, Mexico, Technical Support and Feedback, and The Suggestion Box
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 61,083
Depending on how efficiently AA has dealt with the ATS Oasis Space bin mess (misrouted cabling, improper fastening of bins) they could have the 14 Oasis 738s they grounded back online. AA has 24 B38Ms in service (now grounded). And I suspect 738 pilots were cross trained on 7M8, and are certified to fly either - like 757 and 767 pilots are.

From the AA announcement:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.

Last edited by JDiver; Mar 13, 19 at 5:30 pm Reason: Edit for #
JDiver is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:12 pm
  #356  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, RC/MR/SPG Plat, HHonors Gold
Posts: 6,030
Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
And I suspect 738 pilots were cross trained on 7M8, and are certified to fly either - like 757 and 767 pilots are.
Correct. 738 pilots are also able to fly the MAX.
JDiver likes this.
cmd320 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:15 pm
  #357  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
Depending on how efficiently AA has dealt with the ATS Oasis Space bin mess (misrouted cabling, improper fastening of bins) they could have the 14 Oasis 738s they grounded back online. AA has what, 20 B38Ms in service (now grounded)? And I suspect 738 pilots were cross trained on 7M8, and are certified to fly either - like 757 and 767 pilots are.
I was just about to ask if it was a common cockpit, or 2 independent types. In looking up training schools, they are offering a 737 type covering 737-300 -737 Max9. So it would seem that they could cross populate. Perhaps spreading 1 of the normally in a Max with 1 normally on the 738 for consistency.
autdi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:17 pm
  #358  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS MVP, VA
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by cmd320 View Post
Correct. 738 pilots are also able to fly the MAX.
In fact, isn't that a leading candidate for the underlying cause of at least the Lion Air crash to which the Ethiopian Airlines crash has worrisome similarities? The aircraft are different in balance but Boeing added software to make them fly almost exactly the same as a 738 to save airlines crew retraining costs, and the preliminary evidence suggests that software reacted in a catastrophic way to bad sensor data in the Lion Air case. So 7M8 pilots are largely 738 pilots with less retraining than is typical for a new airplane, right?

Last edited by ashill; Mar 13, 19 at 2:26 pm
ashill is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:18 pm
  #359  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Beantown! (BOS)
Programs: AA PtPro (1 MM); Hilton Diamond; Hertz President Cr; DL SkyMiles; UA MileagePlus
Posts: 2,222
I am hoping AA will swap aircraft on my flight and my flight will operate as schedule, fingers crossed.

Likely the system will not allow AAgents to change reservations without collecting fees and fare difference, likely AAgents do not have authority nor codes to override that on the system. I do not fault AAgents for not able to help me at this moment.
AlwaysAisle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 2:24 pm
  #360  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: DSM
Programs: UA Platinum, Hilton Diamond, Hertz Pres. Circle
Posts: 212
The number of airplanes to be grounded are somewhat minimal. The airlines could work around them. Uncomfortably but not perilous by any means.
My guess is Boeing is the driving force to keep the airplanes active.
cornfedcowboy is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread