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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Apr 30, 19, 7:34 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Mar 13, 19, 9:42 am
  #301  
 
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Originally Posted by rossmacd View Post
In an interesting (but not unexpected move), my employer has just instructed our corporate TA not to ticket any future reservations that include 737MAX sectors. Any forthcoming booked 737MAX sectors on any carrier must be rebooked to alternative aircraft, airlines or cancelled if the 737MAX cannot be avoided.
I just posted this on the BA forum. Interesting to see corporates taking such a stand. Even if AA are not issuing a travel waiver, it will likely cost them some movement over to other airlines.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:02 am
  #302  
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Canada has grounded the MAX.

The US is the only nation left flying them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-8/3148847002/
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:03 am
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Originally Posted by rossmacd View Post
I just posted this on the BA forum. Interesting to see corporates taking such a stand. Even if AA are not issuing a travel waiver, it will likely cost them some movement over to other airlines.
I wonder if AA will change their mind on this (the travel waiver) if some of their large corporate customers start pressuring them. Follow the money.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:05 am
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Canada has just grounded the planes. AA, UA and Southwest will likely have to ground them by the weekend. Not sure what the US airlines and Boeing gain by resisting the tide here (even if the the model is perfectly safe)
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:09 am
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Originally Posted by 355F1 View Post
Canada has grounded the MAX.

The US is the only nation left flying them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-8/3148847002/
Not surprising, given that our reason for continuing to fly them has nothing to do with safety.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:12 am
  #306  
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Forget about USA Today.

You should be watching the live news conference with the Canadian Minister of Transport, Marc Garneau.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5050852/m...-8-ban-canada/


This is related to satellite info that was received last night
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:13 am
  #307  
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Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
AA, UA and Southwest will likely have to ground them by the weekend.
I don't see any other option.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:16 am
  #308  
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Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
Canada has just grounded the planes. AA, UA and Southwest will likely have to ground them by the weekend. Not sure what the US airlines and Boeing gain by resisting the tide here (even if the the model is perfectly safe)
Well there are big disruption costs for the operators, who will probably try to recoup from Boeing. So it's less about what they have to gain by resisting, and more about what they lose by going with the flow. Not sure exactly how that works in terms of if it's a voluntary grounding vs. a regulatory grounding, but I'm sure it's nicely laid out in the purchase contracts!
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:16 am
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This is quite interesting to watch. Just viewed the AA APA spokesman (who flies the MAX 8) on Squawk Box (CNBC), and they sure are holding a hard line on this. It's getting cringeworthy to watch AA keep defending the AA MAX 8 while literally the rest of the world backs away until the dust settles.

The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW were getting these added to their MAX planes.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:24 am
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Originally Posted by ijgordon View Post
Well there are big disruption costs for the operators, who will probably try to recoup from Boeing. So it's less about what they have to gain by resisting, and more about what they lose by going with the flow. Not sure exactly how that works in terms of if it's a voluntary grounding vs. a regulatory grounding, but I'm sure it's nicely laid out in the purchase contracts!
Given all of the interest from the general public on this, don't you think there is some reputation risk? Clearly things are forgotten so quickly in today's news cycle, but the average traveler may think "Wow, American and Boeing kept flying those planes when everyone else stopped because they didn't want to lose money, prioritizing profits over safety"

Originally Posted by econometrics View Post
This is quite interesting to watch. Just viewed the AA APA spokesman (who flies the MAX 8) on Squawk Box (CNBC), and they sure are holding a hard line on this. It's getting cringeworthy to watch AA keep defending the AA MAX 8 while literally the rest of the world backs away until the dust settles.

The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW were getting these added to their MAX planes.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
It is highly unusual, but maybe AA should state this clearly in some public communication as one rationale for keeping the planes in the air. Travelers are watching.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:27 am
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Perhaps AA is buying time to plan equipment contingencies - 3 or 4 days of planning. We gonna see some MD-80s coming from Roswell any time soon?
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:35 am
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Canada is grounding all its Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft and banning the jet from its airspace until further notice in the wake of the Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed all 157 people on board, including 18 Canadians.

"This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace," Transport Minister Marc Garneau said today. - link to CBC article
And then there was one.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:40 am
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
And then there was one.
I don't know if any 7M8s fly the routes in question for AA, but this would affect flights such as BOS-ORD, JFK-SEA, and other such routes that sometimes/often cross southern Ontario.

Also, while several months away, it would affect the DFW-ANC switch to the 7M8 that I believe AA has wanted to do, if they haven't already (I freely admit I have not kept up with this).
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:47 am
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Originally Posted by TheBOSman View Post
I don't know if any 7M8s fly the routes in question for AA, but this would affect flights such as BOS-ORD, JFK-SEA, and other such routes that sometimes/often cross southern Ontario.

Also, while several months away, it would affect the DFW-ANC switch to the 7M8 that I believe AA has wanted to do, if they haven't already (I freely admit I have not kept up with this).
I had a look earlier at the AA routes effected and it seemed that Most if not all MAX are based at MIA
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Old Mar 13, 19, 10:51 am
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Originally Posted by stewaran View Post
I had a look earlier at the AA routes effected and it seemed that Most if not all MAX are based at MIA
Definitely appears to be the case that they are heavily at MIA.
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