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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Mar 13, 19, 6:25 am
  #286  
 
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Originally Posted by justinbrett View Post
I get your point, but it's both laughable and offensive to call these "human rights violations" for people lucky enough to fly, when there are millions if not billions living in poverty and subject to actual human rights violations.

The lack of a few inches of legroom is not exactly cause for calling in the UN....

Maybe tone it down a bit...
Besides, the UN is toothless. This is something that should belong under the purview of the FAA.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 6:31 am
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From our corporate travel department:

Major US carriers have announced they will waive change fees for travelers not wishing to fly on Boeing 737 Max planes.
Has anyone seen this in practice with AA?
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Old Mar 13, 19, 6:44 am
  #288  
 
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WSJ: Pilot of Crashed Jet Reported Flight-Control Problems
The pilot of the Ethiopian Airlines jet that crashed reported that he was having flight-control problems and wanted to return to the airport, the chief executive of the airline said.

NYT: Boeing Chief Personally Appealed to Trump as Countries Grounded Jets
As more countries pulled the 737 Max 8 jet from use after a fatal crash, Boeing’s chief executive called President Trump to express his confidence in their safety.
The company, a major lobbying force, has close ties with the U.S. government, and the Federal Aviation Administration in particular.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:17 am
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not such a regular on AA, but have a flight booked with the family from MIA to LGA next month. Currently scheduled on an A321.
a quick look at AA.com appears this routes about 50% 78M's.

My wife is a VERY nervous flyer at the best of times, and will 100% refuse to travel on a Max currently.

Do AA often change aircraft at short notice? or is it likely a swap to a 78M could accur.
Im trying to decide whether to buy new tickets now on another airline, or risk having to do it on the day!

Thanks for your thoughts
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:39 am
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Originally Posted by stewaran View Post
not such a regular on AA, but have a flight booked with the family from MIA to LGA next month. Currently scheduled on an A321.
a quick look at AA.com appears this routes about 50% 78M's.

My wife is a VERY nervous flyer at the best of times, and will 100% refuse to travel on a Max currently.

Do AA often change aircraft at short notice? or is it likely a swap to a 78M could accur.
Im trying to decide whether to buy new tickets now on another airline, or risk having to do it on the day!

Thanks for your thoughts
The A321 is a big larger than the 73M so it would be unlikely for them to swap one for the other unless they change the schedule between now and then.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:42 am
  #291  
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Originally Posted by stewaran View Post
... is it likely a swap to a 78M could occurs
Under the current circumstances and until the current panic is over, they'd be very reluctant to sub in a 78M on almost any flight, last-minute, as there is so much awareness/hysteria at present so they certainly know people would be watching and then refusing to fly, etc
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:45 am
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Originally Posted by tbrein View Post

The 737 MAX 8 is the original equipment. Thanks for your suggestion. I start monitoring the equipment to see if there are changes. On another note, I have written to the Barbados Civil Aviation Authority urging them to ban the 737 MAX 8 to flying to the island. I have been going to Barbados for the last 38 years and this is the first time that I am feeling so uneasy about our annual trip.
I am a similar situation with a flight to Barbados coming up in May. I really feel like I am between a rock and a hard place as I have over $1300 tied up with AA for this trip. AA maintains it is safe, but the rest of the world isn't so sure. As mentioned above, I have some time, but not THAT much, as prices for alternatives will almost surely go up close to the departure date. It doesn't help that the alternatives to BGI are pretty limited, especially if B6 doesn't fly to your airport (like me).
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:52 am
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Originally Posted by Cledaybuck View Post
I am a similar situation with a flight to Barbados coming up in May. I really feel like I am between a rock and a hard place as I have over $1300 tied up with AA for this trip. AA maintains it is safe, but the rest of the world isn't so sure. As mentioned above, I have some time, but not THAT much, as prices for alternatives will almost surely go up close to the departure date. It doesn't help that the alternatives to BGI are pretty limited, especially if B6 doesn't fly to your airport (like me).
Write to the Barbados Civil Aviation Authority as I did and ask them to ban the plane from landing on the island. The more they hear from people, they may take action. Good luck.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:52 am
  #294  
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Originally Posted by james318 View Post
From our corporate travel department:



Has anyone seen this in practice with AA?
Southwest and UA are waiving fees to change, not pAArker.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 7:59 am
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Originally Posted by cmd320 View Post
The A321 is a big larger than the 73M so it would be unlikely for them to swap one for the other unless they change the schedule between now and then.
Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
Under the current circumstances and until the current panic is over, they'd be very reluctant to sub in a 78M on almost any flight, last-minute, as there is so much awareness/hysteria at present so they certainly know people would be watching and then refusing to fly, etc
Thanks Both,
I imagine any new bookings between now and the plane being globally recognised as safe will be favouring different models of aircraft, so likely our service will be busy enough to stop them downsizing to a 78M.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 8:21 am
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Originally Posted by enviroian View Post
Southwest and UA are waiving fees to change, not pAArker.
Which is really ridiculous and customer unfriendly. It really leaves a bad taste in your mouth about AA.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 8:38 am
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In the same boat as you. Flying out of BGI on April 20th on the 738Max. The only other option at this point is to leave on the early morning flight. I'm in wait and see mode.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 8:51 am
  #298  
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The wiki is wrong and seems to be locked to editing/corrections despite the statement at the top that it's community maintained and open to those of us with enough time on FT and enough posts.

UA operates the MAX 9 NOT MAX 8. They're different aircraft, although they're similar. Both crashed have been MAX 8s.
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Old Mar 13, 19, 9:13 am
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Originally Posted by IzzyL View Post
In the same boat as you. Flying out of BGI on April 20th on the 738Max. The only other option at this point is to leave on the early morning flight. I'm in wait and see mode.
The early morning AA flight is also a 738max (unless you mean the B6 flight).
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Old Mar 13, 19, 9:30 am
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The FA union wants Dennis Boeing and Doug American to ground the plane:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/new...cid=spartanntp


(Tim Apple and Marillyn Lockheed quietly nod in agreement )
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Last edited by nk15; Mar 13, 19 at 9:40 am
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