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Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Recent 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Jun 17, 19, 6:57 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?


13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through 19 August 2019.

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

Currently, AA has removed the 737 MAX 8 aircraft from scheduling through 19 August 2019. The FAA must clear the MAX before it can fly again. AA has 24 MAX 8s grounded and has canceled 115 daily flights as a result. 30 April 2019

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Old Mar 12, 19, 9:31 am
  #226  
 
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This is happening on third world airlines. The common thread is incompetent pilots.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 9:37 am
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Originally Posted by sfoeuroflyer View Post
This is happening on third world airlines. The common thread is incompetent pilots.
This ailing assertion is such a poor way to rationalize a complex issue.

The captain of the ET 737 had as many flight hours as your average Emirates A380 pilot, if not more. And ET's modern safety record is at the same level of almost all major carriers internationally.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 9:52 am
  #228  
 
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There is grumbling about the co-pilot having 200 hours....Not sure if that was total time, 737Max time, time as a commercial pilot, etc. But whatever...
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Old Mar 12, 19, 10:24 am
  #229  
 
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Originally Posted by btravel112 View Post
On a more practical non-technical data point, if you are polite enough and insistent enough with the AA call center, they will waive the change fee for any MAX flights (may require escalation).
I called on my flight which was MIA-LAS on the only 737-MAX flight of the day for that route. What is strange is that the flight has many open seats, yet American is not selling any seats for that flight currently. I called and got my flight changed to one of the 757 flights of the day (both non stops) I am lifetime Plat and never changed my flight before like this. A former FAA safety inspector said today he would not fly that plane until we know more. I assume they would change the flight for anyone however. This is a very unusual issue and couldd really become a major issue for AA and others if they cant fly these planes. I am sure tons of customers are calling right now.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 10:48 am
  #230  
 
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Last edited by FFMilesJunkie; Mar 12, 19 at 11:47 am Reason: my old eyes played tricks on me
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Old Mar 12, 19, 10:55 am
  #231  
 
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This situation could be an argument I guess for airlines keeping the fleet well diversified, and not doing large orders very early on in a new aircraft model...
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:22 am
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Originally Posted by enviroian View Post
UK and Ireland just issued a stop flying for the MAX.

Ryan Air...aren't they a mostly 73 fleet? I wonder how many MAX's they have.

None, but they are scheduled to receive their first Max in a couple weeks.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:23 am
  #233  
 
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Germany and France have joined the UK and others in banning the 7M8 from its airspace.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/12/...om-uk-airspace
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:24 am
  #234  
 
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UK, Germany and France have now all grounded / closed airspace to the MAX.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...312-story.html

(Poland, Netherlands, and many others also grounding / closing to the MAX)

The swells are getting bigger. Just a matter of time now for AA/UA/SW/AC, IMO.

Last edited by econometrics; Mar 12, 19 at 11:33 am
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:26 am
  #235  
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Last edited by JonNYC; Mar 12, 19 at 12:11 pm
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:29 am
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Adding Netherlands, Poland, Belgium, Italy, and Norway to the flight ban over their air space.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:33 am
  #237  
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Originally Posted by FFMilesJunkie View Post
are scheduled
Were scheduled?
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:47 am
  #238  
 
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
No, 1989 has been and is A321 (03 MAY it changes to 7M8, then 06 JUN it changes to 738)

the 7M8 flights on that route are unchanged at present.
My bad, I was looking in the wrong direction. I was checking 293 from MIA-DCA which was showing the 7M8 but then checked DCA-MIA by accident and saw the ~3pm flight was now a 321. Sorry for the confusion. Will edit my original post.
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:52 am
  #239  
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by FFMilesJunkie View Post
My bad, I was looking in the wrong direction. I was checking 293 from MIA-DCA which was showing the 7M8 but then checked DCA-MIA by accident and saw the ~3pm flight was now a 321. Sorry for the confusion. Will edit my original post.
Appreciate the self-correction, not always a popular option 'round here
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Old Mar 12, 19, 11:56 am
  #240  
 
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Originally Posted by SouthernCross View Post

I think advocating pilots get their technical training from the news media creates a host of other issues.
Heh! Definitely true, but I imagine that any 737 MAX pilot would have made himself aware of the symptoms and the cure by now. Haven't there been several Boeing and FAA bulletins sent out to pilots about this?
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