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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Oct 20, 20, 4:22 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see

American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through...
“Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

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Old Sep 16, 20, 9:58 am
  #886  
 
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Congressional report out today:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...es/5809550002/"The committee's report dwells on how, at multiple points in the development of the Max, engineers and test pilots noted problems in MCAS that would later prove to be at the root of the crashes.

As early as 2012, a Boeing test pilot found it took 10 seconds to deal with an uncommanded activation of the MCAS system, which was deemed to be "catastrophic," the report discloses."

A test pilot noted that the MCAS system could kick in multiple times, leaving the plane's ability to stay aloft badly hindered, which is what sealed the fate of the Lion Air and Ethiopian flights, according to the report.

The 737 Max's chief engineer said he approved MCAS without really understanding it, the report states, a reflection of a management system in which he had overall authority, but most of the engineers on the project reported directly to others.
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Old Sep 16, 20, 10:34 am
  #887  
 
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Originally Posted by Robl View Post
The 737 Max's chief engineer said he approved MCAS without really understanding it, the report states, a reflection of a management system in which he had overall authority, but most of the engineers on the project reported directly to others.
Well, that's certainly eye-opening, though at this point not really surprising.
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Old Sep 16, 20, 6:33 pm
  #888  
 
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Originally Posted by cmd320 View Post
Well, that's certainly eye-opening, though at this point not really surprising.
A movie should be made about Boeing's internal chaos...
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Old Sep 16, 20, 6:45 pm
  #889  
 
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Originally Posted by fly747first View Post
A movie should be made about Boeing's internal chaos...
It can be a sequel to this.
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Old Oct 11, 20, 12:58 pm
  #890  
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Captain Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger of US Airways fame and recognized aviation flight safety expert weighed in with his expert opinions on the future of the 737 MAX in the Seattle Times on October 9. In part: (link)“...even if the FAA ungrounds the jet next month as expected, additional modifications are needed as soon as possible to improve the plane’s crew alerting system and add a third check on the jet’s angle of attack data.

‘I’m not going to say, ‘We’re done, good enough, move on,' said Sullenberger.

‘People are going to fly on it and I will probably be one of them,’ he added. ‘The updated MAX will probably be as safe as the (previous model) 737 NG when they are done with it. But it’s not as good as it should be.’...

Dennis Tajer, spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the union representing American Airlines pilots, said he’s with Sullenberger.“

“In June 2019, testifying at a 737 MAX investigation hearing before the U.S. House Transportation Committee, he severely criticized both Boeing’s design failures and the FAA’s oversight during certification of the MAX.

With the ungrounding of the MAX now imminent, he weighed in on what still needs to be done.

His first concern echoes that of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and many of the public comments submitted on the FAA proposal: MCAS on the updated MAX will take input from the jet’s two angle-of-attack sensors, but Sullenberger believes a third check is necessary.

If one of two sensors is faulty, the computers won’t know which is correct.

The likely solution is not a third angle of attack vane on the jet’s exterior, but an indirect, “synthetic” software calculation of the angle of attack based on parameters such as the aircraft’s weight, speed, inertial position and GPS signal.

Boeing’s newest jet, the 787, has such a check on the reliability of its air data sensors called Synthetic Airspeed, a system Boeing rejected for the MAX on cost grounds.”

As a onetime frequent flyer and former pilot, and one who lived through the Comet, Electra and DC-10 debacles, I certainly agree with Captain Sully. But at least pilots will be warned when their is angle of attack disagreement and with the proper training take corrective action, even if Boeing tries to evade doing what I consider the right thing. (If Boeing wants to recover it’s reputation...)
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Old Oct 13, 20, 11:53 pm
  #891  
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Originally Posted by AAExecPlatFlier View Post
Nope. Like the DC10 after its grounding. Or even the 787. It will be will probably get extra attention and a focus on pilot training. Probably will be one of the safest planes in the sky.
I don’t remember what happened DC10 crashes. Did they grounded all DC10? For how long?

Okay. I just found out. The DC-10 is grounded for 37 days. Due to 3 aircraft was crashes.

Here’s a link:

https://simpleflying.com/dc-10-1979-grounding/

Last edited by N830MH; Oct 14, 20 at 12:00 am
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Old Oct 14, 20, 6:05 am
  #892  
 
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Originally Posted by N830MH View Post
I don’t remember what happened DC10 crashes. Did they grounded all DC10? For how long?

Okay. I just found out. The DC-10 is grounded for 37 days. Due to 3 aircraft was crashes.

Here’s a link:

https://simpleflying.com/dc-10-1979-grounding/
Yes, just a little over a month. The primary reason for the grounding was AA191, though Douglas was able to make the necessary modifications to get the aircraft airworthy again pretty quickly. At least, relative to this.

The other piece of the puzzle is at the time, the DC-10 was a much more essential aircraft than the 737MAX is now. It was the backbone of many airlines' long-haul fleets and not easily replaced.
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