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-   -   Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation) (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1939333-boeing-737-max-8-crashes-effects-aa-737-max-8s-not-reaccommodation.html)

jmastron Jan 10, 20 6:45 pm


Originally Posted by VegasGambler (Post 31934746)
As an engineer, this article really resonates with me: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...sed-by-monkeys

It contains a lot more quotes (and context) from the internal emails and messages.

Some are clearly just frustrated employees letting off steam (ie the clowns/monkeys quote, which is funny but honestly not really an uncommon type of statement to make). But there are definitely more disturbing things here. It does look like senior management was pushing to have some facts hidden from the FAA.

My biggest question is, is the FAA actually able to do their job effectively? Or have we gotten to the point that planes are so complicated that no one at the FAA understands what is going on and they basically have to take the word of the senior engineers at the company that makes them? Is the "dogs watching TV" quote accurate?

And I don't mean to pick on the FAA; this is a problem with other regulatory agencies as well. There was talk of making the Indian regulators "feel stupid" for even suggesting that simulator training be required. But of course most agencies will follow the lead of the FAA so it's most important that they get it right.

This has probably moved away from being AA-specific; this is just the only thread where real discussion in happening (on most other threads anything that is critical of the MAX is just deleted due to being "off topic") But if people refuse to fly this plane (or if the regulators refuse to approve it, or if congress blocks it somehow), the effect on AA will be significant. So it's at least tangentially on-topic :)

As an engineer also (thankfully not in products with the same critical life considerations), I agree; I can certainly see how some of the cultural issues they have led to the bad assumptions and decisions that brought us here. I am cautiously optimistic that the new FAA director (who can shake things up and take a hard line with Boeing without being tainted by the prior FAA [in]actions) and the new Boeing CEO (although he is not a "clean" outsider) will lead to a solid evaluation and real technical fixes, but that remains to be seen.

I think the MAX issues have greater impact on AA flyers than some other airlines because, unlike UA and WN, AA has not publically stated that they will allow people to book away from MAX flights -- and reports here were that after 2 crashes and before the US grounding they were refusing to rebook concerned flyers. So travelers who plan to avoid the MAX for a while (personally I think they can eventually be made safe and will fly on them...after a year or two of operation. Until then my family and I will respectfully decline to fly on one) should consider that when deciding which airline to use for routes that could involve a 737-MAX.

ryan182 Jan 10, 20 7:35 pm


Originally Posted by buckeyefanflyer (Post 31934868)
You can design a new aircraft in a year.

A paper one sure, a commercial aircraft not even remotely close to a year. For example the 777-X program launch was Nov 2013 and it won't enter commercial service until 2021.

hbtr Jan 11, 20 1:28 am


Originally Posted by buckeyefanflyer (Post 31934868)
You can design a new aircraft in a year.

Care to cite an example?

Garimi Jan 11, 20 7:34 am

Yeah but only design
What about test certification and production ?
5 years in total at least

buckeyefanflyer Jan 11, 20 5:48 pm


Originally Posted by ryan182 (Post 31935145)
A paper one sure, a commercial aircraft not even remotely close to a year. For example the 777-X program launch was Nov 2013 and it won't enter commercial service until 2021.

I delete that quote situation is not good.

sbrower Jan 12, 20 12:13 am


Originally Posted by CLTRob (Post 31933927)
i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.

United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.

Given your concern I think you should absolutely not book any flights on AA for the next few weeks so that you can be certain to avoid the MAX flights.

JDiver Jan 12, 20 2:01 am


Originally Posted by stevej0531 (Post 31932465)
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ernal-messages

I know this is not purely AA focused, but as an EP on AA it's very worrying to think this plane may come back at some point. When you read stories of "U.S. Regulators Mull Ordering Extra Simulator Training for Boeing 737 MAX Pilots", it does seem a possibility.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reg...ts-11578253214


Originally Posted by CLTRob (Post 31933927)
i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.

United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.

The 737 MAX will likely be recertified by the world’s aviation authorities, but it’s a bit early to worry about when or what AA will allow as rebooking policy until we get closer to the time they might relaunch. We’ll have plenty of notice, as the recertification progress will be news. At this time, AA optimistically is looking at April 6 iirc, but that would certainly be a surprise to many.

moondog Jan 12, 20 2:35 am


Originally Posted by CLTRob (Post 31933927)
i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.

United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.

If you are so worried about this (for flights 4 months out), what is stopping you from going with DL, UA, or WN?

JDiver Jan 14, 20 10:28 am

Bloomberg reports that Lion Air of Indonesia, which lost a 737 MAX in 2018, considered requiring MAX simulator training until they were talked out of it as unnecessary by Boeing


Doing simulator training would have undercut a critical selling point of the jet: that airlines would be able to allow crews trained on an older 737 version to fly the Max after just a brief computer course.

In a report on the Oct. 29, 2018 accident, Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee cited a failure by Boeing to tell pilots about the new flight-control feature on the jet, called MCAS, and the need to provide training on it so that pilots would be able to better respond to malfunctions.

The report also cited shortfalls in the crew’s ability to perform emergency check lists, fly the plane manually and communicate about the emergency. The copilot, who took nearly four minutes to look up an emergency procedure he was supposed to have memorized, was singled out for repeated failures during training.
Link to article

cmd320 Jan 14, 20 12:14 pm


Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31949197)
Bloomberg reports that Lion Air of Indonesia, which lost a 737 MAX in 2018, considered requiring MAX simulator training until they were talked out of it as unnecessary by Boeing



Link to article

Saw this earlier today, unbelievable.

nk15 Jan 14, 20 12:29 pm

This company needs an internal affairs/whistleblower division, and permanent supervision by the government.

ijgordon Jan 15, 20 9:07 am


Originally Posted by cmd320 (Post 31949623)
Saw this earlier today, unbelievable.

Who's to say whether the simulators would even have been programmed with an unexpected MCAS activation? Especially when Boeing didn't even disclose anything about MCAS. And IIRC some of the sim work post-accident had to be programmed in to existing MAX simulators to replicate the incidents. So I'm not convinced simulator training would have prevented this, but this isn't my area of expertise so feel free to try. :)

cmd320 Jan 15, 20 9:10 am


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 31953289)
Who's to say whether the simulators would even have been programmed with an unexpected MCAS activation? Especially when Boeing didn't even disclose anything about MCAS. And IIRC some of the sim work post-accident had to be programmed in to existing MAX simulators to replicate the incidents. So I'm not convinced simulator training would have prevented this, but this isn't my area of expertise so feel free to try. :)

True it’s certainly possible that the sims never would have produced a similar inflight failure, however the arrogance of Boeing is really the alarming part.

MiamiAirport Formerly NY George Jan 15, 20 10:22 am

Not surprising AA has pushed back the re-entry service date to early June, right before the summer season kicks off. Another summer without the Max (looking to be a good possibility) and you wonder what the relationship with Boeing will be. Much worse for WN that was using the Max as the backbone of their expansion. Talk about chasing a long time standalone customer into the hands of Airbus.

moondog Jan 15, 20 10:25 am


Originally Posted by cmd320 (Post 31953298)
True it’s certainly possible that the sims never would have produced a similar inflight failure, however the arrogance of Boeing is really the alarming part.

-Boeing sold planes to "3rd world airlines"
-these airlines requested training on the new aircraft type
-the engineers mocked these airlines for being incompetent
-Boeing told them no additional training was needed
-346 people died
-Boeing attempted to shift the blame to the 3rd world airlines and their inexperienced pilots
-this tactic semi-worked until those internal emails and messages were released
-Boeing is in a bad position now because, even if the Max reemerges as the safest plane in history, many of us simply don't trust Boeing at present, and will make sure to avoid Max at all costs
-sometimes we talk about the idea that the general public doesn't care about what plane their flying on; this is different because if/when the Max returns, there will be extensive media coverage detailing which airlines have it, which ones don't, how to avoid Max flights, and why you might want to avoid Max flights


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