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-   -   Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation) (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1939333-boeing-737-max-8-crashes-effects-aa-737-max-8s-not-reaccommodation.html)

JDiver Jan 6, 20 8:52 pm


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 31917492)
Actually, no, there are 737-700, -800, and -900s.

<head slap> Of course. Thanks. It’s possible they’d just drop the “MAX”, but I’m guessing they’ll add something else. They’ve used “Advanced” for 727s and legacy 737s with more advanced engines, “Super” for Electras and MD-80s. Maybe “737 Nova”, which would be great marketing in Latin America and Spain, where “no va” means “it won’t go”?

JDiver Jan 7, 20 3:32 pm

Boeing is recommending pilots be required to complete simulator training as part of the recertification work. This is a reverse from Boeing’s position under the recently departed CEO Dennis Muilenburg, which had fought pilots’ recommendations for sim work.

There are only 37 MAX simulators in existence, so that will likely slow the return of the MAX to commercial service as well. (WN has three, three more on order.)

Link to CNBC story.

cmd320 Jan 7, 20 7:16 pm


Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31920832)
Boeing is recommending pilots be required to complete simulator training as part of the recertification work. This is a reverse from Boeing’s position under the recently departed CEO Dennis Muilenburg, which had fought pilots’ recommendations for sim work.

There are only 37 MAX simulators in existence, so that will likely slow the return of the MAX to commercial service as well. (WN has three, three more on order.)

Link to CNBC story.

Looks like Boeing may finally be learning its lesson. As they say, the lesson will be repeated until the lesson is learned.

This is most certainly a complete shift from not even a month ago.

VegasGambler Jan 7, 20 7:22 pm


Originally Posted by cmd320 (Post 31921577)
Looks like Boeing may finally be learning its lesson. As they say, the lesson will be repeated until the lesson is learned.

This is most certainly a complete shift from not even a month ago.


Yeah, I'm going to be optimistic here and assume that it's a good-faith attempt by leadership to change the culture.

The cynical side of me is telling me this is just PR to make themselves look better (they want safety-first headlines) but I'm going to fight that feeling for now.

And, let's face it, it might be a bit of both, which is fine. Companies want to be seen doing the right thing -- there's nothing wrong with that if they are actually doing the right thing.

cmd320 Jan 7, 20 7:25 pm


Originally Posted by VegasGambler (Post 31921594)
Yeah, I'm going to be optimistic here and assume that it's a good-faith attempt by leadership to change the culture.

The cynical side of me is telling me this is just PR to make themselves look better (they want safety-first headlines) but I'm going to fight that feeling for now.

And, let's face it, it might be a bit of both, which is fine. Companies want to be seen doing the right thing -- there's nothing wrong with that if they are actually doing the right thing.

Agreed, either way it’s an upgrade as the party line had been ‘we’ve done everything right’ up until now.

VegasGambler Jan 10, 20 3:49 am

this airplane is designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys. -- Boeing Employee

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/b...-messages.html

Other quotes:

I still haven’t been forgiven by God for the covering up I did last year

Would you put your family on a Max simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t (Response: No)

You can be away from an NG for 30 years and still be able to jump into a MAX? LOVE IT!! Followed by: This is a big part of the operating cost structure in our marketing decks.

I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

I don't want to overreact, but... some people are going to jail here? And this can't be good for the return date (or the public's willingness to fly it)

stevej0531 Jan 10, 20 7:42 am

Boeing 737 Max 'Designed by clowns'
 
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ernal-messages

I know this is not purely AA focused, but as an EP on AA it's very worrying to think this plane may come back at some point. When you read stories of "U.S. Regulators Mull Ordering Extra Simulator Training for Boeing 737 MAX Pilots", it does seem a possibility.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reg...ts-11578253214

JDiver Jan 10, 20 9:28 am


Originally Posted by stevej0531 (Post 31932465)
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ernal-messages

I know this is not purely AA focused, but as an EP on AA it's very worrying to think this plane may come back at some point. When you read stories of "U.S. Regulators Mull Ordering Extra Simulator Training for Boeing 737 MAX Pilots", it does seem a possibility.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reg...ts-11578253214

In a reversal after ex-CEO Muilenburg was terminated, Boeing itself is now recommending simulator training as part of MAX pilot qualification.

Boeing’s corporate culture seems to have taken a turn when HQ moved from Boeing design and manufacture country to Chicago, and further deteriorated to this nadir of concern for safety. The terminations culminating in Muilenburg’s, voluntary releases of information and data that are less than flattering to Boeing, the 180 degrees change to recommending simulator training (with only ~37 MAX simulators globally, that will also slow down the MAX’ return to scheduled flights) may be indications this terrible corporate culture has begun reversing. (If it hadn’t, Boeing reached its apogee a few years back and Airbus will eat its lunch.)

ijgordon Jan 10, 20 9:44 am


Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 31932864)
(If it hadn’t, Boeing reached its apogee a few years back and Airbus will eat its lunch.)

The issue, at least in terms of the value of Boeing and its stock, is that Airbus production is sold out for years, and there's no viable alternative, so this would be a very long-term game. Unless the news gets so bad that airlines would rather forego capacity growth than buy Boeing (and that's a very high hurdle IMO). More likely scenario is Boeing has to discount more, which of course does have implications on the company value.

moondog Jan 10, 20 10:19 am


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 31932930)
The issue, at least in terms of the value of Boeing and its stock, is that Airbus production is sold out for years, and there's no viable alternative, so this would be a very long-term game. Unless the news gets so bad that airlines would rather forego capacity growth than buy Boeing (and that's a very high hurdle IMO). More likely scenario is Boeing has to discount more, which of course does have implications on the company value.

Airbus can solve its production issues by getting additional capital.

Possible sources:
-the PRC government
-Air Asia (via Tony, who was their launch customer in Tianjin; I actually had a face to face meeting with Tony about this)
-Delta
-Jetblue
-AF/KL

cmd320 Jan 10, 20 10:23 am

Perhaps some 757s can be reactivated and continue to fly until a proper replacement for the aircraft is produced by one of our woefully complacent aircraft manufacturers.

CLTRob Jan 10, 20 1:14 pm


Originally Posted by stevej0531 (Post 31932465)
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ernal-messages

I know this is not purely AA focused, but as an EP on AA it's very worrying to think this plane may come back at some point. When you read stories of "U.S. Regulators Mull Ordering Extra Simulator Training for Boeing 737 MAX Pilots", it does seem a possibility.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reg...ts-11578253214

i have the same concern. I hold elite status with AA, and I live in one of their hub cities. I haven’t experienced the bad service that I frequently read about, and I enjoy all of the nonstop flights; however, I’m considering booking away from AA for my 2020 and future travel as I have no intentions of flying on a MAX.

United and Southwest have said they will allow flight changes, at no fee, for anyone who doesn’t want to fly on the MAX. AA keeps saying that their policy on switching away from the MAX will be announced in a couple of weeks. AA has been saying “a couple of weeks” for several months now. It doesn’t seem like that there are a lot of options. Either you let customers switch away from the MAX for no fee, or you charge them.

nk15 Jan 10, 20 4:57 pm

These are some of the fixes that the FAA has approved for the MAX so far-- I like it! :p

https://aviationhumor.net/wp-content...Costa-Rica.jpg

Source: https://twistedsifter.com/2010/07/ai...om-costa-rica/

VegasGambler Jan 10, 20 5:08 pm

As an engineer, this article really resonates with me: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...sed-by-monkeys

It contains a lot more quotes (and context) from the internal emails and messages.

Some are clearly just frustrated employees letting off steam (ie the clowns/monkeys quote, which is funny but honestly not really an uncommon type of statement to make). But there are definitely more disturbing things here. It does look like senior management was pushing to have some facts hidden from the FAA.

My biggest question is, is the FAA actually able to do their job effectively? Or have we gotten to the point that planes are so complicated that no one at the FAA understands what is going on and they basically have to take the word of the senior engineers at the company that makes them? Is the "dogs watching TV" quote accurate?

And I don't mean to pick on the FAA; this is a problem with other regulatory agencies as well. There was talk of making the Indian regulators "feel stupid" for even suggesting that simulator training be required. But of course most agencies will follow the lead of the FAA so it's most important that they get it right.

This has probably moved away from being AA-specific; this is just the only thread where real discussion in happening (on most other threads anything that is critical of the MAX is just deleted due to being "off topic") But if people refuse to fly this plane (or if the regulators refuse to approve it, or if congress blocks it somehow), the effect on AA will be significant. So it's at least tangentially on-topic :)

buckeyefanflyer Jan 10, 20 5:49 pm

What’s going on. Plane was to return to service this month now they are saying this summer. What is taking Boeing so long to fix this mess. No
aircraft has ever been grounded this long.


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