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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Oct 20, 20, 4:22 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see

American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through...
“Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

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Old Dec 13, 19, 1:51 pm
  #751  
 
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I’m leaving aa for delta. Not going to lie, delta not flying the max was a pro when I did a pro con list
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Old Dec 13, 19, 2:09 pm
  #752  
 
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The re-introduction to service will no doubt be accompanied by a slew of marketing efforts focused on safety, quality commitment, and flight deck training.

If they're clever, AA won't harp too much on which routes they're throwing it on since the average consumer will have hopefully either forgotten or won't have a clue.
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Old Dec 13, 19, 3:15 pm
  #753  
 
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Originally Posted by enpremiere View Post
The re-introduction to service will no doubt be accompanied by a slew of marketing efforts focused on safety, quality commitment, and flight deck training.

If they're clever, AA won't harp too much on which routes they're throwing it on since the average consumer will have hopefully either forgotten or won't have a clue.
Not OASIS?
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Old Dec 13, 19, 5:20 pm
  #754  
 
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The joys of AA. Come fly the max, and oh by the way enjoy our no leg room but def superior interior Courtesy of project oasis

have fun with that
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Old Dec 13, 19, 5:28 pm
  #755  
 
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Originally Posted by Nuhusky View Post
The joys of AA. Come fly the max, and oh by the way enjoy our no leg room but def superior interior Courtesy of project oasis

have fun with that
And then of course the opportunity for some zero G experience followed by immediate death.

Yeah, hard pass on the MAX. Not flying on one in my life.
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Old Dec 15, 19, 12:43 pm
  #756  
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Originally Posted by newyorkgeorge View Post
You have to wonder what is really going on. I constantly read reports that the FAA is getting close to re-certifying the a/c and then suddenly it's back in limbo. Seems as though there's more going on than meets the eye. I have to wonder will this plane every fly again?
I suspect that Boeing are trying extremely hard to have conversion certification via tablet and avoid the need for full Pilot Simulator Training.

In my reading this month, it seems those pilots involved in recent simulation tests of the changes are not responding in the ways Boeing would prefer.
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Last edited by serfty; Dec 15, 19 at 12:57 pm
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Old Dec 15, 19, 4:20 pm
  #757  
 
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Originally Posted by serfty View Post
I suspect that Boeing are trying extremely hard to have conversion certification via tablet and avoid the need for full Pilot Simulator Training.

In my reading this month, it seems those pilots involved in recent simulation tests of the changes are not responding in the ways Boeing would prefer.
One would think Boeing should have learned its lesson by now and should be willing to go above and beyond in fully retraining crews and re-certifying the aircraft. The fact that they’re *still* dragging their feet and trying to save money is quite troubling and speaks to the current culture at Boeing.
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Old Dec 15, 19, 5:31 pm
  #758  
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WSJ reports Boeing considering “pausing” MAX production:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...on-11576448990
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Old Dec 15, 19, 8:00 pm
  #759  
 
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Originally Posted by spongenotbob View Post
WSJ reports Boeing considering “pausing” MAX production:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...on-11576448990
Since the WSJ is behind a paywall here is the CNBC article that sums it up.
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Old Dec 16, 19, 10:04 am
  #760  
 
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Originally Posted by moondog View Post
I'll be willing to fly it 2 years after it returns to service, myself. But, until then, I will go out of way to avoid the MAX. My sense is that airlines have also figured that a lot of their customers --even infrequent flyers, who usually have no clue at all about what type of plane the're on-- are intent upon staying clear. These sentiments, whether or not rationally justified, will have a significant impact on the marketability of MAX (to both airlines, and passengers).
Would honestly not surprise me if a non-trivial number of businesses are telling Concur/CWT/etc. to not show itineraries with segments on the MAX. It also would not surprise me if AA's been told by some corporations that renewal of travel contracts will be tied to the ability to guarantee that their employees won't be flying on MAXs until the type has a couple of years in service without an incident globally, in which case I'd expect the MAXs to be kept on leisure-heavy routes for months after return to service.
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Old Dec 16, 19, 12:17 pm
  #761  
 
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At this point, I am starting to wonder (while probably highly unlikely) - what if the MAX doesn't get approved to come back into service?
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Old Dec 16, 19, 2:30 pm
  #762  
 
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I overheard a couple of AA pilots chatting on a hotel shuttle at DFW a couple of days ago. One said he heard they may do something with the pylons and turn them back to 737-800's.
Disclaimer: I know not of what I speak in this matter.....
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Old Dec 16, 19, 4:41 pm
  #763  
 
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As of today, new production has been suspended (although WIP may still finish; unclear at the moment) with some discussion that viable certification may not occur until year-end.
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Old Dec 16, 19, 4:42 pm
  #764  
 
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Originally Posted by spongenotbob View Post
WSJ reports Boeing considering “pausing” MAX production:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...on-11576448990
Originally Posted by AeRoSpaceman View Post
Since the WSJ is behind a paywall here is the CNBC article that sums it up.
Sure enough the whispers became true.
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Old Dec 16, 19, 8:01 pm
  #765  
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Originally Posted by enpremiere View Post
Sure enough the whispers became true.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/16/busin...ion/index.html

Stock down 4%.
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