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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Oct 20, 20, 4:22 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see

American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through...
“Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

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Old Mar 29, 19, 3:59 pm
  #526  
 
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News outlets are now reporting that the ET crash was same as Lyon Air - except the Lyon Air supposedly had a defective sensor - but the ET did not.

So the excuse that Lyon Air had a single bad sensor wasn't the cause. So the fix is to put in redundant sensors, but in the ET case, the sensor did not fail.

Basically the aircraft isn't stable, and pilots need to be on constant alert to be able to take over controls from an autopilot system - should the airplane tilt up and go into a stall. So much for autopilots on a new plane which should be flying for 45 years.

China appears to be backing away from the MAX. We will have to see what happens if others follow suit.
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Old Mar 29, 19, 4:10 pm
  #527  
 
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Personally, I would not fly in this plane for at least a year after the FAA approves it again.

I don't trust software that was written in a rush against a deadline (even given the FAA's stringent testing requirements).
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Old Mar 29, 19, 5:14 pm
  #528  
 
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There seems to be a focus on faulty angle of attack sensors...
1) Why are these sensors vulnerable to failure?
2) Given there are two of them, why did Boeing design MACS to consider only one of these sensors?

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Old Mar 29, 19, 8:30 pm
  #529  
 
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Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
There seems to be a focus on faulty angle of attack sensors...
1) Why are these sensors vulnerable to failure?
2) Given there are two of them, why did Boeing design MACS to consider only one of these sensors?

One of the sensors is optional and neither Lyon Air or ET had the redundant sensor.
- Boeing blamed a faulting sensor on the Lyon Air to trigger MCAS - and MCAS reacted violently.
- News appears to be reporting that ET crash was same but no mention of a failed sensor - just that the software took over - so seems like software crash or bad software. Then MCAS reacted violently.

Software fix is to limit MCAS extreme moves and alarm pilot to turn it off and fly the plane manually.
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Old Mar 29, 19, 8:36 pm
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
Personally, I would not fly in this plane for at least a year after the FAA approves it again.

I don't trust software that was written in a rush against a deadline (even given the FAA's stringent testing requirements).
You got to gamble a little? If you have a large life insurance policy, family may get a good payoff.

I am also looking at one year before I go on that sucker. I am not concerned so much about the software itself, but more about how the plane flies without a more robust MCAS as originally designed. Will there be more difficult to control nose up problems without MCAS ? Is Boeing switching one type of problem for another ? I think we will definitely know about one year after that sucker gets into the air.

I would like to see a lot of in flight testing with MCAS fully disabled.
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Old Apr 7, 19, 8:34 am
  #531  
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AA is now saying it will be June 5 (at least) before their MAX 8s are in the schedule again.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 2:46 pm
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737-MAX, the 'real' reason for the crashes

Interesting video breaking down why the 737 MAX is a flawed aircraft...

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Old Apr 30, 19, 3:27 pm
  #533  
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No mention of:

Boeing did not include any discrimination or anomaly handling if either of the Angle Of Attack sensor differed in the reported AOA in the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law software.

Boeing offered as extra cost options:

Angle Of Attack indicator reflecting the two AOA sensors’ reported AOA in the primary flight display with

AOA anomaly / disagreement warning indicator

Iirc, AA purchased both, WN purchased one and ET, JT (and UA, among others) chose not to buy either.

Boeing has announced it will henceforth update MCAS

The additional layers of protection include:

Flight control system will now compare inputs from both AOA sensors. If the sensors disagree by 5.5 degrees or more with the flaps retracted, MCAS will not activate. An indicator on the flight deck display will alert the pilots.

If MCAS is activated in non-normal conditions, it will only provide one input for each elevated AOA event. There are no known or envisioned failure conditions where MCAS will provide multiple inputs.

MCAS can never command more stabilizer input than can be counteracted by the flight crew pulling back on the column. The pilots will continue to always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane.
as well as include the AOA indicator and disagree warning indication


Amplify the manuals, supplements and CBT to highlight the MCAS, functions and how to disconnect / override them.

Include the MCAS pitch control issue in simulator training

READ the entire Boeing statement published 17 April 2019 here, or see the video of CEO

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/73...e-updates.page

Boeing is testing, consulting with pilots and airlines, FAA, etc. Heck of a tragic cost in getting here.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 7:29 pm
  #534  
 
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
No mention of:

Boeing offered as extra cost options:

Angle Of Attack indicator reflecting the two AOA sensors’ reported AOA in the primary flight display with

AOA anomaly / disagreement warning indicator

Iirc, AA purchased both, WN purchased one and ET, JT (and UA, among others) chose not to buy either.

It is good to know that AA bought both. AA may seek to save on seats but they spent money there.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 9:25 pm
  #535  
 
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I admittedly know nothing about how aircraft are built and equipped, but as a lay person, I find it quite odd that something like what JDiver describes above (or any safety feature) would be an optional piece of equipment.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 9:49 pm
  #536  
 
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Fascinating video on AA's role in pressuring Boeing to produce the 737 Max

Fascinating video on AA's role in pressuring Boeing to produce the 737 Max.


Last edited by Oakshadow; May 1, 19 at 8:51 am
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Old May 1, 19, 8:12 am
  #537  
 
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The fact remains that Boeing rushed a product that is a bad design to the market. Yes, AA may have had some influence there.

All of the news I keep hearing is about adding redundancy and pilot training. That's great, but what if it fails and they have to disable MCAS? The point of keeping it as a 737 was to keep a common type rating for pilots to eliminate need to retrain. However, this aircraft will handle different than other 737s, so what are the odds that a 737NG pilot would know the handling of a 737MAX well enough to fly without MCAS in the event of a problem?

The 737MAX is a flawed design that has no business being in the marketplace. You can band aid and duct tape it all you want, but it's still a poor design.
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Old May 1, 19, 10:05 am
  #538  
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Originally Posted by Oakshadow View Post
Fascinating video on AA's role in pressuring Boeing to produce the 737 Max.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfNEOfEGe3I
Fascinating...if you can get over the singsong cadence of the narrator. Seriously, YouTubers, learn some basic speaking skills.
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Old May 1, 19, 11:32 am
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Definitely interesting information, and also agree with above about speaking/presentation.
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Old May 1, 19, 12:00 pm
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Originally Posted by HofstraJet View Post
I admittedly know nothing about how aircraft are built and equipped, but as a lay person, I find it quite odd that something like what JDiver describes above (or any safety feature) would be an optional piece of equipment.
Why? I just bought a new car and there were lots of optional safety features.
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