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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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Old Oct 20, 20, 4:22 am   -   Wikipost
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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see

American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through...
“Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.






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Old Mar 26, 19, 10:27 am
  #511  
 
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Originally Posted by JDiver View Post
Apparently, the AA order included additional safety measures that weren’t included as standard with other orders, to boot.

Here’s an interesting take by Captain Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger, retired US Airways pilot (who landed his Airbus on the Hudson River) and aviation safety consultant:
Very Clearly stated by a true professional.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 10:42 am
  #512  
 
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Making the two MCAS safety features optional and charging for them was what kids these days call "epic fail".

<removed OMNI/PR material>
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Last edited by JY1024; Mar 27, 19 at 4:45 am Reason: OMNI/PR material removed by moderator
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Old Mar 26, 19, 11:36 am
  #513  
 
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
Precisely. And when the CEO of ET speaks only of the pilot's vast experience, it makes you wonder.
Honestly I’d feel much more comfortable with an 8000 hour captain and a 350 hour FO on a 757 than I would feel with two 8000 hour pilots on a max8.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 2:51 pm
  #514  
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
Precisely. And when the CEO of ET speaks only of the pilot's vast experience, it makes you wonder.
Two pilots in the plane. Not one. Two. That's a great example of redundancy.

MCAS is a great example of lack of redundancy.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 5:04 pm
  #515  
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Maybe or maybe not related but did anyone see this story today?

Looks like an empty SW MAX had some sort of take-off emergency on its way to storage and landed back at the airport.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ge/3281138002/
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Old Mar 26, 19, 6:36 pm
  #516  
 
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Originally Posted by 355F1 View Post
Maybe or maybe not related but did anyone see this story today?

Looks like an empty SW MAX had some sort of take-off emergency on its way to storage and landed back at the airport.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ge/3281138002/
Engine problem, which given WN's history with engines, is not that suprising. Unfortuantely because it was a 7M8 the media is gonna jump on it as being related to that, and not WN's record of poor maintenance practices.

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Last edited by JY1024; Mar 27, 19 at 2:03 am Reason: Moderator removed comments better left for OMNI P/R forum
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Old Mar 26, 19, 8:08 pm
  #517  
 
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It was reported from a simulation done the other day, that the pilots of the doomed flights only had about 40 seconds to turn off MCAS that could have possibly saved the flights. The so called fixed is just tweaking the amount of adjustment that MCAS can do. Not making me feel all that good about the situation.

I still think if more airlines cancel (and this will take some time) - the MAX could still be doomed.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 9:07 pm
  #518  
 
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Originally Posted by cova View Post
It was reported from a simulation done the other day, that the pilots of the doomed flights only had about 40 seconds to turn off MCAS that could have possibly saved the flights. The so called fixed is just tweaking the amount of adjustment that MCAS can do. Not making me feel all that good about the situation.

I still think if more airlines cancel (and this will take some time) - the MAX could still be doomed.
Nothing to worry about, every time you get on a Max just make sure you ask the pilots if they know how to handle the MCAS and if they know what they're doing...
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Old Mar 26, 19, 11:00 pm
  #519  
 
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
Two pilots in the plane. Not one. Two. That's a great example of redundancy.

MCAS is a great example of lack of redundancy.
Two pilots in a plane doesn't guarantee survivability. In some cases it can be a liability. In the crash that took place near Houston last month (Atlas Air), the working theory is the co-pilot became spatially disoriented while at the controls and put the plane into a dive. The pilot attempted to counteract it by pulling back on the stick - pulling back so hard that he -ripped- the control column out of the floor by the bolts.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 11:48 pm
  #520  
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Originally Posted by 355F1 View Post
Maybe or maybe not related but did anyone see this story today?

Looks like an empty SW MAX had some sort of take-off emergency on its way to storage and landed back at the airport.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...ge/3281138002/
The problem apparently occurred ten minutes into the flight and was caused by an engine having ingested some debris that was on the runway at takeoff. The pilots turned off that engine and returned to MCO, landing without incident. It doesn't sound like it was related to the problem(s) that caused the Lion Air and Ethiopia crashes.
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Old Mar 27, 19, 4:49 am
  #521  
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Old Mar 27, 19, 6:24 am
  #522  
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
Two pilots in a plane doesn't guarantee survivability. In some cases it can be a liability. In the crash that took place near Houston last month (Atlas Air), the working theory is the co-pilot became spatially disoriented while at the controls and put the plane into a dive. The pilot attempted to counteract it by pulling back on the stick - pulling back so hard that he -ripped- the control column out of the floor by the bolts.
If you're trying to imply that we should just go with one pilot instead of two, you've lost me.

Maybe Boeing also needs stronger bolts on the control columns of 767s.
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Old Mar 27, 19, 6:35 am
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
If you're trying to imply that we should just go with one pilot instead of two, you've lost me.

Maybe Boeing also needs stronger bolts on the control columns of 767s.
Absolutely not stating that there should be one pilot. But I am saying that if one is countering the other or if one is so "weak" that they fail to be a benefit where there needs to be two to handle the issues at hand, two pilots doesn't guarantee a favorable outcome. No you definitely need two in the front office - but they both need to know what they are doing, both need to be adequately trained, both need to work as a team, and both need to understand the chain of command when a command decision needs to be made.

As to bolts, I believe they're designed to shear off as a safety feature and to increase survivability in a crash.

Last edited by IADCAflyer; Mar 27, 19 at 6:44 am
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Old Mar 27, 19, 6:41 am
  #524  
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
Absolutely not stating that there should be one pilot. But I am saying that if one is countering the other or if one is so "weak" that they fail to be a benefit where there needs to be two to handle the issues at hand, two pilots doesn't guarantee a favorable outcome. No you definitely need two in the front office - but they both need to know what they are doing, both need to be adequately trained, both need to work as a team, and both need to understand the chain of command when a command decision needs to be made.
Perhaps we can agree on my original point: Redundancy increases the odds of success; lack of redundancy decreases the odds of success.

Just because you can find an exception here and there doesn't disprove the over-arching concept.
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Old Mar 29, 19, 1:10 am
  #525  
 
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
Two pilots in the plane. Not one. Two. That's a great example of redundancy.

MCAS is a great example of lack of redundancy.
No, three pilots in the plane is a great example of redundancy...The two pilots flying the plane, and the MCAS specialist standing by, watching over them...
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