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Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)

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This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.

To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see

American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)

To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?

13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through...
“Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).

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The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.

The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.

The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.

American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".

Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.

29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link

This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.

7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.

7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.

See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.

10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.

Link to BBC article.

Link to Aviation Herald discussion.

Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.

10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.

A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.

11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.

11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.

Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.

Link to Wall Street Journal article.

11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)

11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)

12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.

12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.

Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article

13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html

13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.

13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.

13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:

On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.

14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.

Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia

15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.

15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.

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Old Nov 7, 18, 7:38 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by Djokison View Post


That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

This is a heads up, no more, no less. At this point in time there is no reason to believe a MAX flight is any likelier to drop from the sky than any other plane.
What other aircraft have this bulletin? Asking because I was not aware of these "bulletins" in general.

Can't the pilots disengage auto pilot when it is causing issues?
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Old Nov 7, 18, 9:23 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by NauticalWheeler View Post
What other aircraft have this bulletin? Asking because I was not aware of these "bulletins" in general.
I'd wager that pretty much every aircraft type in existence has active service bulletins.
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Old Nov 7, 18, 9:38 pm
  #18  
 
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I’d like to “ask the pilot” what the procedure is for a defective Angle of Attack measuring system. I was flying at U of I institute of Aviation when one of my campus professors was designing his own A of A instrument with a little bit of help from me back then. Best way to operate an aircraft in my opinion is using A of A v airspeed, but that’s not the subject here I suppose.

Last edited by tryathlete; Nov 7, 18 at 10:45 pm
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Old Nov 7, 18, 9:59 pm
  #19  
 
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The plane is supposed to fly automatically. If there is a bug in the system, that caused this - that requires manual intervention, then the plane is unsafe and should be grounded.

737s were grounded in the past, remember the crash in Pittsburg, due to rudder.
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Old Nov 8, 18, 6:03 am
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Djokison View Post
That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.
I'm just a simple aerospace engineer, so I'll defer to your expertise then. Clearly nothing to see here.
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Old Nov 8, 18, 6:46 am
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by cova View Post

737s were grounded in the past, remember the crash in Pittsburg, due to rudder.
Huh? The 737 was never grounded. An AD was issued to replace the rudder pcu’s. Operators were given 3 years to accomplish this, and pilots were trained on the recovery procedure on the interim.

There are airworthiness directives issued all the time. They range from what the layman would consider mundane to serious. I’d leave the heavy lifting on these matters to the professionals that maintain and fly the planes.

Last edited by DataPlumber; Nov 8, 18 at 6:55 am
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Old Nov 8, 18, 7:32 am
  #22  
 
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For those of you looking for a more technical explanation of this... I would highly recommend looking at the extensive forum on flight 610 over on a.net.

There is nothing that would concern me about getting on a MAX. This system is also in place on the old NG -8/900 models as well, but admittedly it’s “stronger” on the new MAXs (in Lehman’s terms). Boeing just issued a statement that basically says “follow the procedure” in the event of AOA instrument problems.

Runaway trim is a perfectly normal training scenario most pilots have practiced dozens of times. Until I see the NTSB or the FAA directly blame the MAX, I don’t see how that should change whether you get on one. This bulletin says nothing other than a reminder of how the systems work, and what procedure to follow.
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Old Nov 8, 18, 7:57 am
  #23  
 
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The FAA issued an Emergency Airworthiness Directive requiring carriers to rewrite their flight manuals (if necessary) concerning recovery procedures...so not exactly a "heads up" warming. So yeah, probably not the safest plane to being flying right now.
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Old Nov 8, 18, 8:14 am
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by jk88usa View Post
There is nothing that would concern me about getting on a MAX.
Not even in Y?
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Old Nov 8, 18, 8:17 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by GaryZ View Post
The FAA issued an Emergency Airworthiness Directive requiring carriers to rewrite their flight manuals (if necessary) concerning recovery procedures...so not exactly a "heads up" warming. So yeah, probably not the safest plane to being flying right now.
that is an extremely dramatic way of saying the FAA now requires you to put the 3 printed pages Boeing Issued at the front of your flight manuals. Those 3 pages are simply a reminder on procedure that is included later in the manual...
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Old Nov 8, 18, 8:20 am
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by thunderlounge View Post
Not even in Y?
Ok you got me there, like many others I can’t even fit in the lav
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Old Nov 8, 18, 9:44 am
  #27  
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Instead of arguing over semantics, we should be asking what happened in the Lion Air accident. Why didn't the mechanics fix the problem, before the plane flew again? Did the previous flight crew report the problem in a coherent manner? Is there some sort of software issue that should be corrected? While the 737 has been around for nearly 50 years, this is essentially a new type of aircraft. There are always going to be issues and, unfortunately, accidents until the issues are worked out. We are fortunate these days that accidents are minimized, but look back at history of any commercial aircraft type. No need to get overly worried.
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Old Nov 13, 18, 5:41 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by Djokison View Post


That’s your (erroneous) interpretation, then.

This is a heads up, no more, no less. At this point in time there is no reason to believe a MAX flight is any likelier to drop from the sky than any other plane.
Awaiting your update on this, given that the pilots' union and FAA disagree with you.
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Old Nov 13, 18, 7:27 am
  #29  
 
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This is turning into a rather unpleasant and serious mess for the air frame manufacturer.
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Old Nov 13, 18, 8:08 am
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by IADCAflyer View Post
This is turning into a rather unpleasant and serious mess for the air frame manufacturer.
Sure is.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ers-1542082575
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