Mar 12, 2019, 12:03 pm
Last edit by: JDiver
This thread is dedicated to the effect on AA from the October 29, 2018 and March 10, 2019 crashes if two Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia, respectively.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
13 March 2019: AA issues policy allowing those scheduled for 7M8 flights through April 4 to refund or change without fees for cancellations, or to make free changes to their flight plans. See the thread linked to at the top of this Wiki for a link.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
To discuss the probable and limited return of the Boeing MAX to service with AA at the end of 2020 and increasingly in 2021, please see
American Planning 737 MAX Service Restoration (Limited Dec and 2021)
To discuss reaccommodation by AA subsequent to the grounding of all Boeing MAX 8s and 9s by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 13 March 2019, please refer to 737 MAX grounded 13 Mar 2019. What to do if you were supposed to fly on one?
13 March 2019: All US airline Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft are grounded by US Federal Aviation Administration emergency order. AA has removed all 737 MAX 8 from scheduling through... “Based on the latest guidance, the airline anticipates that the resumption of scheduled commercial service on American’s fleet of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft will occur (limited schedule Dec 2020).
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Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
As with previous incident threads, please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Reasonable speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. FlyerTalk complies with international copyright agreements. Please do not post full copyrighted articles; summarize the salient points, cite properly and post links. Entire copyrighted articles will be summarily deleted.
6. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
The thread regarding the 10 March 2019 Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 737 MAX 8 crash out of Adis Ababa is Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]. Link.
The thread regarding the 29 October 2018 Lion Air JT 610 737 MAX 8 crash out of Jakarta is Lion Air flight from Jakarta has crashed
. Link.
The best narrative and information available is probably the Aviation Herald’s Crash: Lion B38M near Jakarta on Oct 29th 2018, aircraft lost height and crashed into Java Sea, wrong AoA data, by Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Oct 25th 2019 13:35Z, last updated Friday, Oct 25th 2019 16:05Z. Link.
American Airlines ordered 100 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (7M8) with options for 60 more. The first 737 MAX -8 flew at the assembly facility in Renton, WAshington, USA on 29 Jan 2016. Deliveries to AA commenced in late in 2017, with four delivered in 2017,16 more during 2018, with 20 more to be delivered during 2019. IATA code B38M; AA code "7M8".
Link to the story of how 737 MAX’ birth in the DFW Admirals Club and the forces that shaped it.
29 October 2018: Indonesian carrier Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29 crashed into the sea soon after takeoff with the loss of all aboard, apparently due to the erroneous data from a faulty Angle of Attack sensor, which caused the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to assume the plane was about to stall, which activated the downward force on the Stabilizer Trim to get the nose down. Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
“Instead of switching off the Stabilizer Trim the pilots appear to have battled the system.” Link
This aircraft had been written up as having a faulty AOA indicator for the previous three flights it had taken. It is unclear if Lion Air had performed adequate maintenance procedures after the reports or withdraw the aircraft from service until the fault could be completely cleared.
7 November 2018: The US Federal Aviation Administration / FAA issued an Airworthiness Directive (AD note) covering the AOA within a few days, giving US airlines 30 days to comply with the AD.
7 November 2018: Boeing issued revised operating instructions covering the revised MCAS used in the MAX 8, updating the MAX operations manual. See the manual update and the switches referenced in this post.
See “What is the Boeing 737 MAX Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System?”, updated November 17 to explain the MCAS and electric trim override operation, here: link.
10 March 10, 2019: An Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 departing Addis Ababa to Nairobi turned back to the airport soon after takeoff, but crashed with the loss of all aboard.
Link to BBC article.
Link to Aviation Herald discussion.
Link to FlyerTalk airline forum thread regarding this incident.
10 March 10, 2019: The US National Transportation Board / NTSB has dispatched an investigation team, as have Boeing, to Addis Ababa to assist the Ethiopian investigators in determining the cause(s) of the crash. The “black boxes” (cockpit voice and the flight data recorder have been recovered.
A revised MCAS is in the works, and the FAA is expected to issue an AD note when the MCAS update is done. This is expected to occur in May, 2019.
11 March 2019: China grounded its 737 MAX 8 (not MAX 9) fleet.
11 March 2019: the US FAA stated it would not ground US (AA, AS, UA, WN) 737 MAX aircraft at this time.
Link to FAA Airworthiness Notification for USA registered B38M aircraft PDF.
Link to Wall Street Journal article.
11 March 2019: AA APFA Flight Attendant union spokesperson asked AA to ground the MAX 8s. (TPG)
11 March 2019: AA pilots through their APA union have requested passengers allow the investigators do their work and refrain from jumping to conclusions. “We caution against speculation about what may have caused this tragic accident,” the Air Line Pilots Association said in a statement. (TPG)
12 March 2019: The nation members of the European Union, the United Kingdom and several other nations ban their airlines’ operation, and other airlines’ overflight or flights, of the B38M aircraft. Link to New York Times article.
12 March 2019: Other USA airlines operating 737 MAX aircraft (of all types) are United (UA), Southwest (WN). AS has ordered the MAX 9, but deliveries have not yet been made.
Link to The Points Guy “how to tell if you’re flying a 737 MAX 8” article
13 March 2019: American Airlines pilots’ union APA issues statement in support of the AA B38M: “The AA APA spokesman says AA's MAX 8s have additional indicators on the planes, which others do not have. He says they're the only ones equipped with TWO AOA displays - one for each pilot. This, I guess, is why AA feels they can keep flying the MAX 8. The spokesman said he felt UA and SW (WN) were getting these added to their MAX planes. “ - Econometrics
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ilot-says.html
13 March 2019: Canada grounds Canadian B38M aircraft. The US is the sole remaining nation to allow operation of the 737 MAX 8. Link to USA Today article.
13 March 2019: US Federal Aviation Administration issues emergency order for immediate grounding all USA airline operated Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, effectively immediately. Link NYT story.
13 March 2019: American Airlines issues announcement of 7M8 grounding. Link to PDF. According to AA:
On average, American operates 85 flights per day on the MAX 8, out of 6,700 departures throughout the American Airlines system. Our operations center is working to re-route aircraft throughout the system to cover as much of our schedule as we can.
14 March 2019: It is announced the French BEA will retrieve the data from the Ethiopian Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
Link to Eight things you might not know about black boxes
By Cristen Tilley, ABC Australia
15 March 2019: BBC article states FAA says the MAX will not be cleared for flight at least until May. Link to story.
15 March 2019: On the other hand, CNBC states Boeing will have the anti-stall software update for the MAX ready in ten days, and that the FAA is expected to sign off on the modification on March 25, 2019.
NOTE: Thus Wikipost is locked. Please contact JDiver by PM, or use the report post to moderator button , to request changes or correct errors, etc.
Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes and effects on AA 737 MAX 8s (NOT reaccommodation)
Mar 11, 2019, 7:05 pm
#181
Join Date: Oct 2018
Programs: American Life Time 2 Million Mile Platinum
Posts: 368
The penalty is currently they have to use one of their personal days, and there is the ability to make that day up by being scheduled on an alternative day (presumably on a different aircraft). Additionally, their union is working to get that requirement waived. So if the union can get their penalties waived, should we expect passengers can get their change fee waived?
First: It appears that the airlines are callously using failure to waive change fees to force the public to have confidence in the 737Max!
Second and most importantly, whats a little money compared to your life, if you are really concerned about flying the 737Max? Right now I would be concerned and a "change fee" would not keep me from stepping on to a different aircraft.
Third, every time someone does this, changes from a 737Max to another plane type, fee or no fee, it sends a message to the airlines about how they should be handling this situation. A) yes they should be waiving the change fee cause ALL of their passengers are changing and they will remember HOW they were treated, B) the airlines and Boeing better come up with a "fix" to this other than having "confidence" because the flying public may not.
YMMV
Mar 11, 2019, 7:38 pm
#182
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2017
Programs: Rapid Rewards, AAdvantage, SkyMiles
Posts: 2,931
If you guys aren't avoiding the 737 MAX for "safety" reasons, you should be avoiding at least AA's version for the way they configured it. I'll take a Spirit/Frontier flight over an AA MAX flight.
Mar 11, 2019, 7:47 pm
#184
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: PHL, NYC
Programs: AA PLT, DL SLV, UA SLV, MR LTT, HH DIA
Posts: 10,067
The news reports, for what they're worth, have stated the multiple witnesses saw the plane with a trail of smoke. The MCAS system, as best I understand it, doesn't involve a smoke trail. But now that they have the CVR and FDR, there should be some updated news in the coming weeks. If it is determined that the Lion Air and Ethiopia Air crashes were due to different root causes, then that will restore some level of confidence in the MAX, but it will probably have a stigma attached to it for some time.
Mar 11, 2019, 9:03 pm
#186
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 65
Personally I can’t trust that any regulatory agency right now is making judgments in good faith and in the public’s best interests. Not with the amount of corruption and regulatory capture we’ve seen in this administration. As much as anyone claims that the Chinese decision to ground the planes was a political decision, I can’t with a straight face claim the FAA’s is not.
Mar 11, 2019, 9:12 pm
#187
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,107
Personally I can’t trust that any regulatory agency right now is making judgments in good faith and in the public’s best interests. Not with the amount of corruption and regulatory capture we’ve seen in this administration. As much as anyone claims that the Chinese decision to ground the planes was a political decision, I can’t with a straight face claim the FAA’s is not.
Mar 11, 2019, 9:33 pm
#188
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA EXP, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,658
Watching Australia TV. ABC sights reports from other pilots flying the 7M8 of issues with flying the aircraft and needing to return to the airport - but they made it back. Sounds like some real technical issues here.
Mar 11, 2019, 9:48 pm
#189
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
Didn't see this posted in the thread. Mods, feel free to move/merge. Thanks.
Interesting memo
American Airlines Flight Attendants Union Telling Crew They Don’t Have to Work the 737 MAX
https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea...k-the-737-max/
Interesting memo
American Airlines Flight Attendants Union Telling Crew They Don’t Have to Work the 737 MAX
https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea...k-the-737-max/
Mar 11, 2019, 10:20 pm
#190
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 65
if you don’t agree with me, here’s FlyerTalk saint SFO777 saying the same thing yesterday
(that he liked your post is not lost on me)Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 Max 8 crashes on way to Kenya [ET302 ADD-NBO 10MAR19]
Last edited by axck; Mar 11, 2019 at 10:27 pm
Mar 12, 2019, 1:57 am
#191
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: DCA/IAD
Programs: AA EXP; 1W Emerald; HHonors Diamond; Marriott Gold; UA dirt
Posts: 7,816
Personally I can’t trust that any regulatory agency right now is making judgments in good faith and in the public’s best interests. Not with the amount of corruption and regulatory capture we’ve seen in this administration. As much as anyone claims that the Chinese decision to ground the planes was a political decision, I can’t with a straight face claim the FAA’s is not.
Mar 12, 2019, 2:08 am
#192
Join Date: Aug 2018
Programs: Qantas
Posts: 85
They have the black boxes now. I would think Boeing will have a pretty good grasp of the situation in 48-72 hours. If they have doubts they'll ground the fleet. But they could also put out a directive to turn the offending systems off with other performance restrictions/guidance until such time as the problem can be completely fixed.
From my armchair POV Boeing and the FAA are responding as they should. As stated above none of the major Western aviation authorities have grounded the aircraft. There's way too much media and speculation in this story and not enough fact.
Certainly, if evidence is found on the black boxes to support a grounding, I would expect that to occur.
From my armchair POV Boeing and the FAA are responding as they should. As stated above none of the major Western aviation authorities have grounded the aircraft. There's way too much media and speculation in this story and not enough fact.
Certainly, if evidence is found on the black boxes to support a grounding, I would expect that to occur.
Mar 12, 2019, 2:33 am
#193
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX (elite) and a few others (non-elite)
Posts: 687
( OFF TOPIC: Thank you Doug "spiderman" Parker. Parker is a big guy. I would love to see him or his staff fly cross county in the back. In fact I think all executives sould be made to fly in coach, to experience the service "enhancements." I think if they did we would have a better coach product.)
Last edited by JY1024; Mar 12, 2019 at 8:49 am
Mar 12, 2019, 3:00 am
#194
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CLE
Programs: UA,WN,AA,DL, B6
Posts: 4,168
Wow that's a PR dumpster fire waiting to happen if they say their employees can opt-out of flying on a plane specifically due to these two incidents but they won't allow customers to do so...did they not think that memo would leak? I would still fly on the plane myself, even if it ends up that after the investigation that these disasters were caused by the MCAS I'm still way more likely to die en-route to the airport than on a plane, but the optics of allowing a crew member to opt-out w/o penalty while not allowing passengers to do the same is shockingly tone-deaf. Beyond optics, from a CYA standpoint should something happen to an AA flight that is later attributed to this I have to imagine this decision would not be helpful to AA in any litigation that would most certainly occur.
Would the pilots union tell pilots the same. They can opted out to. I am sure some are concerned.
Mar 12, 2019, 3:01 am
#195
Join Date: May 1998
Location: australia
Posts: 5,762
First do no harm seems a good philosophy. Unfortunately, these days that seems to be interpreted as do no harm to industry/commerce/business interests rather than to the consumer/planet/anything that lives and breathes.
Government of the corporation , by the corporation, for the corporation
Government of the corporation , by the corporation, for the corporation
