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Business award downgraded BCN-ORD segment, AA fails to refund equitably

Business award downgraded BCN-ORD segment, AA fails to refund equitably

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Old Nov 3, 18, 11:56 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by edfisher View Post


i am very inexperienced with regards to FlyerTalk so please excuse the rant. Yesterday an AA manager explained that our refund was based upon the difference between a mileage coach fare (on the day of the flight) and business class fare that we paid (130,000/ticket purchased on 11/10/17). They then calculated to return 95% of the difference. She then claimed she had never heard of EC261/2004. She was really quite condescending in her manner. That was the 10th conversation I have had with AAdvantage customer service. I have also emailed the VP of customer relations who then suggested I call AAdvantage customer service. Do you see a run around pattern here? Since then I have emailed the aforementioned ECC email address (I thank the person for that reference). We’ll see!!

The manager you spoke with explained the wrong policy, they are referencing AA's policy for refunding downgrades on non-EU regulated flights, that is not what you are looking for. I would agree that is an unfair yet legal AA policy, but the manager you spoke with was giving you the correct interpretation of the wrong policy. When they explained they don't know what the EU guidelines are, as most of their employees unfortunately do not since this isn't something a typical CS person handles, you should escalate until someone who does. Now you know there is a department who specializes in EU compensation claims, and since you have contacted them they should be able to get you the correct REFUND you are entitled too; if you feel it necessary, it doesn't hurt to ask for COMPENSATION as well for the inconvenience/bad-will this has caused, however they are not under any obligation to provide it..

I don't think this is AA intentionally giving you the run around, moreso a string of agents who don't know what the legal standards are for EU departing flights. Now that you've gotten to the right people, you might try mentioning how difficult the process was to get in contact with them on the off-chance that the feedback may prompt someone to make the EU claims department more accessible.
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Old Nov 3, 18, 11:58 am
  #32  
 
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The AA calculation is non-sensical as it would mean each ORD-PHX ticket in F is calculated at 63,885 which is nearly the same as the BCN-ORD sector. I would explian the regulation requires 75% refund of the sector (and any taxes/fees overpaid if any) and that you expect the ORD-PHX to be calculated as 25k (saver) and that the proper calculation is 260-50k = 210 x 75% = 157,500. That sounds fair to me.
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Old Nov 3, 18, 12:17 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
it is very unhelpful when people edit posts in the way you have and expect others to go and reread to find this new, essential information.

if you had just posted something like “I was downgraded on X flight have AA calculated the miles refund right?’” instead of an inaccurate rant about class action law suits you would have got very different answers.
That was the subject of the OP's other thread on the same trip--->Downgrade from Business to Economy on a Mileage Award ticket
There are recent posts in that thread
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Old Nov 3, 18, 2:03 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by edfisher View Post


i am very inexperienced with regards to FlyerTalk so please excuse the rant. Yesterday an AA manager explained that our refund was based upon the difference between a mileage coach fare (on the day of the flight) and business class fare that we paid (130,000/ticket purchased on 11/10/17). They then calculated to return 95% of the difference. She then claimed she had never heard of EC261/2004. She was really quite condescending in her manner. That was the 10th conversation I have had with AAdvantage customer service. I have also emailed the VP of customer relations who then suggested I call AAdvantage customer service. Do you see a run around pattern here? Since then I have emailed the aforementioned ECC email address (I thank the person for that reference). We’ll see!!
The calculation might be one it can get away with for a flight not departing EU, but for EU de[arture, hold on and get the 95% of the 75% of the miles paid - so approximately another 50,000 miles

since you have claimed now through the EC261 email address, hopefully you will get properly reimbursed
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Old Nov 3, 18, 4:36 pm
  #35  
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Originally Posted by edfisher View Post


i am very inexperienced with regards to FlyerTalk so please excuse the rant. Yesterday an AA manager explained that our refund was based upon the difference between a mileage coach fare (on the day of the flight) and business class fare that we paid (130,000/ticket purchased on 11/10/17). They then calculated to return 95% of the difference. She then claimed she had never heard of EC261/2004. She was really quite condescending in her manner. That was the 10th conversation I have had with AAdvantage customer service. I have also emailed the VP of customer relations who then suggested I call AAdvantage customer service. Do you see a run around pattern here? Since then I have emailed the aforementioned ECC email address (I thank the person for that reference). We’ll see!!
To keep this in the sphere of the rational, you are entitled to a refund of 75% of the miles paid for the downgraded segment. When you were only downgraded for one segment of a connection, the miles would be calculated based on a distance percentage.

Thus, take MAD-ORD as a percentage of the distance MAD-ORD-DTW, figure 75% of that and you have your refund claim. In addition, if that shift affects any taxes or fees, those should be refunded in cash accordingly.

Bottom line is that even if AA intentionally lied to you and intentionally miscalculated the refund, that does not amount to any semblance of a class action under US law. You can do a whole lot better just sticking to the facts.
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Old Nov 3, 18, 5:22 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Bottom line is that even if AA intentionally lied to you and intentionally miscalculated the refund, that does not amount to any semblance of a class action under US law. You can do a whole lot better just sticking to the facts.
Are you a lawyer? Do you have any experience whatsoever in consumer protection law? If not, I wouldn't speculate baselessly on these sort of issues.
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Old Nov 3, 18, 9:27 pm
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Originally Posted by SamOF View Post
Are you a lawyer? Do you have any experience whatsoever in consumer protection law? If not, I wouldn't speculate baselessly on these sort of issues.
I am a lawyer and lawsuits are a way to make arrogant companies play by the rules. And in reaching out I have discovered that AA is notorious for failing to adequately compensate people for delays, cancellations and downgrades. The way I have been treated by the AA customer service agents and supervisors is terrible. My favorite was the last agent stating “ well you got home didn't you”. What was I supposed to do, stay in Spain? Ignorance of the law is no excuse for not abiding by existing regulations. All AA customer service reps should know about the regulations for all countries AA flies to/from. If they don’t, turn the customer over to someone who does. Don’t just say “I’ve never heard of EC261/2004”.
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Old Nov 3, 18, 11:03 pm
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Originally Posted by edfisher View Post
<snipped>. Multiple representatives have stated that “they have never heard of EC261/2004 and that I have been refunded all the miles I am going to get”. Please tell me how to pursue this matter further as I am getting the corporate run around.
You have NOT been communicating with the right representatives. AA has people that deal with EU compensation as indicated someone's post\
As noted, you should get 75 percent of the award miles used for the downgraded segment. That miles for the award segment should be calculated based on the percentage of miles that segment is of the trip

Last edited by mvoight; Nov 3, 18 at 11:58 pm
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Old Nov 4, 18, 12:07 am
  #39  
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
You have NOT been communicating with the right representatives. AA has people that deal with EU compensation as indicated someone's post\
As noted, you should get 75 percent of the award miles used for the downgraded segment. That miles for the award segment should be calculated based on the percentage of miles that segment is of the trip
Agree

Originally Posted by edfisher View Post
I am very inexperienced with regards to FlyerTalk so please excuse the rant. Yesterday an AA manager explained that our refund was based upon the difference between a mileage coach fare (on the day of the flight) and business class fare that we paid (130,000/ticket purchased on 11/10/17). They then calculated to return 95% of the difference.
You seem to be asking for a refund. EC261 is about compensation: not refund. They are not the same (but close)

Ask for a refund and that is what you will get. Guess it will be by apportion.
Ask for compensation to EC261 and that is what you will get. EC261 has defined %.
AA link to AA EC261 claim in a post above.
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Old Nov 4, 18, 12:13 am
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Originally Posted by edfisher View Post


I am a lawyer and lawsuits are a way to make arrogant companies play by the rules. And in reaching out I have discovered that AA is notorious for failing to adequately compensate people for delays, cancellations and downgrades. The way I have been treated by the AA customer service agents and supervisors is terrible. My favorite was the last agent stating “ well you got home didn't you”. What was I supposed to do, stay in Spain? Ignorance of the law is no excuse for not abiding by existing regulations. All AA customer service reps should know about the regulations for all countries AA flies to/from. If they don’t, turn the customer over to someone who does. Don’t just say “I’ve never heard of EC261/2004”.
I am a bit confused and not a lawyer, you are a lawyer who looked for interest in a class action lawsuit in the US against AA over EU 261 — but are unfamiliar with the failure of a similar lawsuit that was dismissed against Delta?

Volodarskiy, et al. v. Delta Airlines Inc., Case No. 1:11-cv-00782, in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.

communicate with the right department on EU claims and ask for an explanation if not satisfied.

And I would have also been very peeved in this situation.

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Old Nov 4, 18, 12:19 am
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Mwenenzi View Post
Agree


You seem to be asking for a refund. EC261 is about compensation: not refund. They are not the same (but close)

Ask for a refund and that is what you will get. Guess it will be by apportion.
Ask for compensation to EC261 and that is what you will get. EC261 has defined %.
AA link to AA EC261 claim in a post above.
Actually it is the same thing - there is no compensation for a downgrade under EC261, it is a reimbursement of 75% - which is the same as a refund
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Old Nov 4, 18, 3:39 pm
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Originally Posted by arttravel View Post


I am a bit confused and not a lawyer, you are a lawyer who looked for interest in a class action lawsuit in the US against AA over EU 261 — but are unfamiliar with the failure of a similar lawsuit that was dismissed against Delta?

Volodarskiy, et al. v. Delta Airlines Inc., Case No. 1:11-cv-00782, in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.

communicate with the right department on EU claims and ask for an explanation if not satisfied.

And I would have also been very peeved in this situation.

The lawsuit comment was just a vent but i do get tired of big business taking advantage of regular folks who save and plan and look forward d to special trips only to have it taken away and not be made whole with the proper refund. It just seems strange that the VP of customer relations could not have pointed me in the right direction a week ago when I contacted him. Why make the process of getting an EC refund so elusive? What skin is it off them to not do the right thing and refund the proper miles?
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Old Nov 4, 18, 4:08 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by edfisher View Post

The lawsuit comment was just a vent but i do get tired of big business taking advantage of regular folks who save and plan and look forward d to special trips only to have it taken away and not be made whole with the proper refund. It just seems strange that the VP of customer relations could not have pointed me in the right direction a week ago when I contacted him. Why make the process of getting an EC refund so elusive? What skin is it off them to not do the right thing and refund the proper miles?
I won't attempt to read the exec's mind, but a lot of airline people believe that EU 261 is unfair, and are therefore reluctant to help customers do the legwork. Furthermore, mispeaking (e.g. admitting fault) could be used against them.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 8:46 am
  #44  
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This is a simple claim. It is required under EU rules and the terms are spelled out in the Regulation. Downgrades are the easiest. There are no exceptions to the provision as there are with delay compensation and the calculation is simple. This makes the claim short & sweet and AA's EU team is well-trained and (relatively) efficient.

Things slow down and become more contentious on certain complicated claims, but downgrade reimbursement (refund) is not one of them.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 9:02 am
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Originally Posted by moondog View Post
I won't attempt to read the exec's mind, but a lot of airline people believe that EU 261 is unfair, and are therefore reluctant to help customers do the legwork.
Well of course they think it's unfair. If it were up to them, they'd downgrade you on your $2000 advance purchase business class ticket and try to refund the difference to the last-minute coach fare, which is $2500, and so you should be paying them. Fair to them is -- we're moving your flight an hour earlier, deal with it, but when I want to change to the flight an hour earlier they want $200. The big corporation that gets to unilaterally write the contract of carriage doesn't get to decide what's fair to the consumer.
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