How long til / will reverse no seatback IFE decision?
Oct 18, 2018, 3:36 pm
#136
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Well, no kidding. My point (and I think the point of others such as AANYC1981) has been that if seatback IFE is so terrible and so obsolete, why aren’t they racing to get them off of the planes flying the most premium routes first? That would be most logical, if that assertion was true.
Oct 18, 2018, 3:38 pm
#137
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Moreover, I’m not sure where you get the $5 million figure from or why the $10,000 is relevant given that that is in reference to older, and to use your language, more obsolete wired IFE systems.
European airlines are not a proper comparison given differences in flight length. And I wonder why JetBlue, Delta, Air Canada, Aeromexico, Korean Air, Air New Zealand, and other airlines would just throw money down the toilet? And again, why is no airline racing as fast as it can to rip these out of all wide bodies?
Yes, I know you will talk about how obsolete and expensive it has to be on narrowbodies like Dougie, ignoring any contrary evidence or facts and ignoring the whole point about widebodies.
I haven't seen that AA is skipping in seat IFE on 777 or 787.
Oct 18, 2018, 3:42 pm
#138
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Not to mention, most people are going to expect it on LAX-ATL, NYC-ATL, and many other routes for obvious reasons.
Last edited by TXguy; Oct 19, 2018 at 10:47 am
Oct 18, 2018, 3:48 pm
#139
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Well, no kidding. My point (and I think the point of others such as AANYC1981) has been that if seatback IFE is so terrible and so obsolete, why aren’t they racing to get them off of the planes flying the most premium routes first? That would be most logical, if that assertion was true.
To be fair I LOVE IFE's and would welcome them on every aircraft. But the bean counters are not wrong. They will (hopefully) pass these savings on to the customer thus allowing lower prices where business travels who has to take the lowest fair will be on AA. Its a different attack at the business travel market. Delta is improving on the experience and AA is trying to make it more profitable. Delta is using some of the AA post 9/11 tactics but that is what led it to bankruptcy. MRTC (remember those days) IFE decent meals and upgrades plenty. For now I am thinking about a serious switch to DL out of NYC because of how the airline is trying to improve. It is going to be interesting to see how they battle it out.
Oct 18, 2018, 4:15 pm
#140
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Well that would create a need to refurbish the 32T... More costs AA isnt looking at taking on. And if they do refurbish them they will end up more Oasised I bet. Furthermore the expense to put in IFE is about 10K per unit. Doing this on a small subset in a premium market is possible where as an entire fleet, lets take the newest 321NEO (190 seats) and 7M8 (172 seats). That would be respectively 1.9 and 1.72 million per plane. With them ordering 100 of each that would be 190 and 172 million dollars for a grand total of 362 million. And that would be for about half of the A321's and 1/3 of the 737's (73M and 738). If they were incorporating IFE into the aircraft's in Oasis you could almost add a Billion to the entire project. This does not include having parts and technical skilled employees to fix the IFE's dealing with IFE's that dosent work and having to give compensation plus added weight and gas consumption which is trending upwards.
To be fair I LOVE IFE's and would welcome them on every aircraft. But the bean counters are not wrong. They will (hopefully) pass these savings on to the customer thus allowing lower prices where business travels who has to take the lowest fair will be on AA. Its a different attack at the business travel market. Delta is improving on the experience and AA is trying to make it more profitable. Delta is using some of the AA post 9/11 tactics but that is what led it to bankruptcy. MRTC (remember those days) IFE decent meals and upgrades plenty. For now I am thinking about a serious switch to DL out of NYC because of how the airline is trying to improve. It is going to be interesting to see how they battle it out.
To be fair I LOVE IFE's and would welcome them on every aircraft. But the bean counters are not wrong. They will (hopefully) pass these savings on to the customer thus allowing lower prices where business travels who has to take the lowest fair will be on AA. Its a different attack at the business travel market. Delta is improving on the experience and AA is trying to make it more profitable. Delta is using some of the AA post 9/11 tactics but that is what led it to bankruptcy. MRTC (remember those days) IFE decent meals and upgrades plenty. For now I am thinking about a serious switch to DL out of NYC because of how the airline is trying to improve. It is going to be interesting to see how they battle it out.
Oct 18, 2018, 4:39 pm
#141
Join Date: Jul 2011
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And of course, 5m+ for a 738/A320 would definitely be more than a million ....
"But those entertainment systems are expensive to install. They can cost $10,000 per seat, estimated Dan McKone, managing director and head of the travel and transportation practice at the consulting firm L.E.K.
They also add bulk and weight to seats and quickly become technologically obsolete, especially because most Americans are now flying with at least one mobile device, said Henry Harteveldt, travel industry analyst and co-founder of Atmosphere Research Group."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/b...rtainment.html
If there was an ROI on this, I suspect you'd see the Lufthansa group airlines, the KLM-AirFrance airlines, the IAG airlines, United, WN, AS, LATAM airlines, as well as AA, making sure this was on their narrowbodies.
Hard to believe all of them have finance folks who can't run the numbers ....
And all those cool hotels with rooms with iPod docks .... hmmh. And I confess there was a time when cutting edge was to give all your execs with blackberry's issued by the company. All of those are well within the half-life of the purchase of a narrowbody aircraft.
"But those entertainment systems are expensive to install. They can cost $10,000 per seat, estimated Dan McKone, managing director and head of the travel and transportation practice at the consulting firm L.E.K.
They also add bulk and weight to seats and quickly become technologically obsolete, especially because most Americans are now flying with at least one mobile device, said Henry Harteveldt, travel industry analyst and co-founder of Atmosphere Research Group."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/b...rtainment.html
If there was an ROI on this, I suspect you'd see the Lufthansa group airlines, the KLM-AirFrance airlines, the IAG airlines, United, WN, AS, LATAM airlines, as well as AA, making sure this was on their narrowbodies.
Hard to believe all of them have finance folks who can't run the numbers ....
And all those cool hotels with rooms with iPod docks .... hmmh. And I confess there was a time when cutting edge was to give all your execs with blackberry's issued by the company. All of those are well within the half-life of the purchase of a narrowbody aircraft.
anyone who doesn't have an easel or something for their phone or tablet can pick them up for next to nothing, heck they're often free giveaways at most trade shows I've been to. I like my own device because it doesn't get paused when the announcement comes on and freezes the seatback IFE.
I have zero problem with the screens being removed.
Oct 18, 2018, 5:58 pm
#142
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AMR CEO Crandall used to obsess about savings from eliminating a single olive from the salad, multiplied to scale throughout the AA network. You can bet the math to avoid the weight and expense of screens, wires, and so forth saves even more than the stupid olives.
anyone who doesn't have an easel or something for their phone or tablet can pick them up for next to nothing, heck they're often free giveaways at most trade shows I've been to. I like my own device because it doesn't get paused when the announcement comes on and freezes the seatback IFE.
I have zero problem with the screens being removed.
anyone who doesn't have an easel or something for their phone or tablet can pick them up for next to nothing, heck they're often free giveaways at most trade shows I've been to. I like my own device because it doesn't get paused when the announcement comes on and freezes the seatback IFE.
I have zero problem with the screens being removed.
Delta puts the customer first as Bastian recently said in their Q3 earnings call and demand for their product has never been greater.
Cant wait for AAs Q3 report especially regarding their struggle to attract premium revenue vis-a-vis Delta.
Oct 19, 2018, 6:12 am
#143
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thats the beauty of Deltas solution....giving the customer the option of how they prefer to consume entertainment.....you wanna watch it on your phone? Go ahead.....you prefer seatback screens, we got that too.
Delta puts the customer first as Bastian recently said in their Q3 earnings call and demand for their product has never been greater.
Cant wait for AAs Q3 report especially regarding their struggle to attract premium revenue vis-a-vis Delta.
Why paid F on DL today? It gets me in 2 hours earlier and I missed the last flight out last night (on AA). Plus, it was only $60 more to buy F and skip over the 28 DL elites on the upgrade list.
But, there are no screens on this plane and the Y fare on DL is exactly the same as on AA so DL isn't getting any premium over AA. The FA's on my AA flight in and on my DL flight this morning both offered me PDB. They were all polite and friendly. Both have crappy baskets fully of poor quality snack choices.
Sticking with IFE, they probably both have reruns of the Office ....
Nothing wrong with DL. Fares are the same domestically and people are nice. But, both AA and DL get me where I need to be ... AA, OTOH, will put me at the top of the upgrade list, answer my calls immediately, reroute me on the best option if there is an issue while still giving ORC. AA generally offers better -- or at least the same -- schedules for my travel.
As for the IFE piece, I don't care one way or the other. I do know, however, that marginal capital investment such as something like seatback IFE requires a minimum of 15-20 percent ROI. Have you run the numbers on that? Any idea why Bombardier would have eaten the cost of certification of a number of things related to the C100 -- I mean A220's? Or ... why Airbus or Boeing won't eat those same costs on their narrowbody aircraft.
If you're correct on your view of IFE, I wouldn't just focus on the Q3 10Q. I'd listen in on the analysts questions or some of their reports to see if they focus on it.
Oct 19, 2018, 8:59 am
#144
Join Date: Jul 2011
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thats the beauty of Deltas solution....giving the customer the option of how they prefer to consume entertainment.....you wanna watch it on your phone? Go ahead.....you prefer seatback screens, we got that too.
Delta puts the customer first as Bastian recently said in their Q3 earnings call and demand for their product has never been greater.
Cant wait for AAs Q3 report especially regarding their struggle to attract premium revenue vis-a-vis Delta.
Oct 19, 2018, 9:06 am
#145
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Well ... I'm sitting on a DL mainline flight in paid first as I write this. I will finish this year with 200k on AA/Oneworld and another 30-50k on DL and AS.
Why paid F on DL today? It gets me in 2 hours earlier and I missed the last flight out last night (on AA). Plus, it was only $60 more to buy F and skip over the 28 DL elites on the upgrade list.
But, there are no screens on this plane and the Y fare on DL is exactly the same as on AA so DL isn't getting any premium over AA. The FA's on my AA flight in and on my DL flight this morning both offered me PDB. They were all polite and friendly. Both have crappy baskets fully of poor quality snack choices.
Sticking with IFE, they probably both have reruns of the Office ....
Nothing wrong with DL. Fares are the same domestically and people are nice. But, both AA and DL get me where I need to be ... AA, OTOH, will put me at the top of the upgrade list, answer my calls immediately, reroute me on the best option if there is an issue while still giving ORC. AA generally offers better -- or at least the same -- schedules for my travel.
As for the IFE piece, I don't care one way or the other. I do know, however, that marginal capital investment such as something like seatback IFE requires a minimum of 15-20 percent ROI. Have you run the numbers on that? Any idea why Bombardier would have eaten the cost of certification of a number of things related to the C100 -- I mean A220's? Or ... why Airbus or Boeing won't eat those same costs on their narrowbody aircraft.
If you're correct on your view of IFE, I wouldn't just focus on the Q3 10Q. I'd listen in on the analysts questions or some of their reports to see if they focus on it.
Why paid F on DL today? It gets me in 2 hours earlier and I missed the last flight out last night (on AA). Plus, it was only $60 more to buy F and skip over the 28 DL elites on the upgrade list.
But, there are no screens on this plane and the Y fare on DL is exactly the same as on AA so DL isn't getting any premium over AA. The FA's on my AA flight in and on my DL flight this morning both offered me PDB. They were all polite and friendly. Both have crappy baskets fully of poor quality snack choices.
Sticking with IFE, they probably both have reruns of the Office ....
Nothing wrong with DL. Fares are the same domestically and people are nice. But, both AA and DL get me where I need to be ... AA, OTOH, will put me at the top of the upgrade list, answer my calls immediately, reroute me on the best option if there is an issue while still giving ORC. AA generally offers better -- or at least the same -- schedules for my travel.
As for the IFE piece, I don't care one way or the other. I do know, however, that marginal capital investment such as something like seatback IFE requires a minimum of 15-20 percent ROI. Have you run the numbers on that? Any idea why Bombardier would have eaten the cost of certification of a number of things related to the C100 -- I mean A220's? Or ... why Airbus or Boeing won't eat those same costs on their narrowbody aircraft.
If you're correct on your view of IFE, I wouldn't just focus on the Q3 10Q. I'd listen in on the analysts questions or some of their reports to see if they focus on it.
Still, the new, modern, cheaper IFE tablets at $1500 (or however much) per seat with a much smaller weight penalty wouldn't have to generate too much extra revenue to pay for itself.
Oct 19, 2018, 11:06 am
#146
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IFE also plays into NPS (net promoter scores) of customer satisfaction which they could assign dollar values to it. So if DL planes with IFE get higher NPS overall then they can say its a revenue driver.
Oct 19, 2018, 11:37 am
#147
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That's an "if," and a "maybe" at best. The airline that routinely gets the best score is WN, which has no seatback IFE or F or PDB .... but, WN doesn't charge for bags.
Oct 19, 2018, 12:24 pm
#148
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NPS (and other like measures) do not necessarily translate into an ROI or ROA (despite what the marketing consultants like to tell you). I much as I prefer AVOD over pulling out my tablet on its own there is no way it can achieve any kind of acceptable ROI. However, some companies think big picture. DL does, so does WN. Parker is not a big picture thinker. I'd bet money there are other things he'd pull in a heartbeat if his staff was fighting him every step of the way (like the current complimentary upgrade system). The issue for many companies has been while they were watching the nickels and dimes the whole store got away. However, with the airlines down to 4 mega carriers AA is safe, particularly given its hub structure.
Oct 19, 2018, 12:40 pm
#149
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I think the issue is that AA offers (or is transitioning to offer) none of it. Essentially no legroom, no seatback IFE, no free texting, fewer free snacks in coach, extremely tiny lavatories, the staff treat you like your presence is an inconvenience, 3-4-3 on the 777 in coach, etc. It isn’t just about IFE—but rather about offering something positive. If AA offered WN’s legroom in coach, that would be one thing, but I think seatback IFE would probably be cheaper.
Last edited by TXguy; Oct 19, 2018 at 2:54 pm
Oct 19, 2018, 1:10 pm
#150
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C17PSGR highlights an important point; if NPS is relevant today/truly important when it comes to air travel, WN's ranking could signify that domestic seat-back IFE isn't really that crucial to the success equation.