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The secret cell phone enforcer on my flight

The secret cell phone enforcer on my flight

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Old Oct 17, 18, 1:34 pm
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Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
Someone should really tell the FAA they don't have any rules about portable electronic devices, because they sure seem to think they do:

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/ped/

The tl;df of which is: it's generally safe (but not always) to use PEDs on airplanes. The FAA will work with airlines to roll out procedures to allow them to be safely used.
Wow, jordyn, you really got me with this one! Oh...wait...the link you provided literally contains this line:

The FAA is not considering the use of cell phones for voice communications during flight because Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulations currently prohibit any airborne calls using cell phones.
And the first InFO linked from that link contains the following:

Airplane Mode. The operator should continue to require passengers to place their PEDs in “Airplane Mode” (cellular transmitters off) from the time the aircraft takes off until it lands. If the aircraft is equipped with on-board wireless services, the operator should address the acceptable times for when the passengers may turn on their PEDs and connect to the wireless services. Aircraft equipped with wireless systems have been tested to ensure that they will not interfere with the aircraft’s avionics.
Note: FCC regulations 47 CFR 22.925 prohibits the use of some cellular services while inflight. Requiring “Airplane Mode” during PED operation will help prevent violation of these regulations.

The FAA is providing guidance here specifically because of the FCC regulations, not their own. As I said before there's no FAA regulation on the subject. Feel free to browse through the appropriate USC title online; this isn't the first thread where I've issued that invite. So far nobody's come up with the elusive FAA regulation banning phones.

Also just as an aside the mention in that same InFO of carriers requiring airplane mode "from the time the aircraft takes off until it lands" is interesting for its precision; the earlier poster here who claimed that saying "in flight" doesn't matter because taxi is "part of the flight" may have a harder time with this language. Anyway back to your points:

Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
In the particular case of AA, they seem to have decided that the safe thing is to turn devices onto airplane mode once the door closes, so when flying AA that's the relevant rule for the situation at hand.
Man it'd be so great if you actually knew what you were talking about. From the AA website:

Phones and electronic devices

You can use your cell phone, laptop computer and other electronic devices onboard until advised by the flight crew, but cell phone calls aren't allowed during flight.
Emphasis mine. You're just wrong on the facts, again. There's no AA policy saying you have to go into airplane mode when the door closes. The policy is when the crew announces. I've been on plenty of planes where that happened during taxi, and a few where they just clean forgot. That latter case is probably why they included "but cell phone calls aren't allowed during flight" just to cover the bases.

Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
By the way, the FAA also addresses the very situation the OP and his off-duty seat mate faced in their FAQs:

Quote:
What should I do if the crew says to turn off electronics and the person next to me doesn't do it?

You could politely remind the person of the crew's announcement, but above all, avoid a confrontation.
First off, this non-rev's behavior doesn't sound "polite" to me, and definitely doesn't sound like "above all, avoid a confrontation." More importantly, did you actually read the question? Let me emphasize the part you might have missed:

What should I do if the crew says to turn off electronics and the person next to me doesn't do it?
The crew didn't say to turn off electronics, so this advice to pax does not apply.

Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
For all of you jumping on the off duty FA, it doesn't seem like she really tried to use her authority as an FA to get the OP to comply.
So giving an order followed by "I'm an FA" isn't an attempt to assert authority? Really? How about "Police, hands up!" Sorry, that's nonsense: giving a direct order followed by a title is an explicit invocation of authority.

Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
She said that she was concerned about her personal safety, which seems like a reasonable thing for a fellow passenger to be concerned about.
Well no, it's not particularly reasonable. In addition to there being zero evidence of safety issues, any reasonably numerate person would realize that every flight they board has at least a couple people who forget or purposefully ignore the rule. So you're worrying about something that happens virtually every time you fly, which isn't reasonable given the overall industry safety. Now that said, I would totally sympathize with the concern (even if I don't consider it reasonable) if this were a regular passenger... but we're not talking about a lay person here. An FA should know better than to spout nonsense like that. In my opinion a regular old pax who did the same thing (minus the "I'm an FA" presumably) would be way less out of line than a non-rev.

Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
The tone to the person across the aisle seems a bit more problematic, but politely asking the person next to you to comply with a rule seems not particularly different than asking someone not to cut in line in front of you.
...and there you go again. She wasn't "politely asking the person next to [her] to comply with a rule" she was ordering people to do what she wanted by falsely claiming it was a rule and falsely claiming the authority to enforce said fake rule.

Congratulations jordyn: it's got to be tough to write a post that long and have literally every single sentence be wrong!
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Old Oct 17, 18, 3:29 pm
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Originally Posted by HLCinCOU View Post
The FAA is providing guidance here specifically because of the FCC regulations, not their own. As I said before there's no FAA regulation on the subject. Feel free to browse through the appropriate USC title online; this isn't the first thread where I've issued that invite. So far nobody's come up with the elusive FAA regulation banning phones.
First, you have the burden of proof wrong. You've linked to a clear statement from the FAA telling airlines to limit the use of electronic devices to airplane mode. Referencing the FCC rule doesn't make the FAA guidance go away, and it doesn't say that it's contingent on the FCC rule remaining in place. If you think that the FAA is only stating the requirement because of the FCC rule, it's on you to demonstrate that unambiguously.

But since you want a USC title, here you go: 14 C.F.R § 91.21

Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:

(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate;
Paragraph (b) says that the carrier may make a determination that the electronic device is safe. The InFO that you link to tells an airline how it can qualify for the exception, and that exception requires that devices be operated in airplane mode. Regardless of the exception, though, there's a very clear title in the federal code, enforced by the FAA, on the use of cell phones and all other PEDs on airplanes.

(Edited to add, since I forgot to address the point about AA's policy--the rest of your tirade is mostly just differences of opinion that you're trying to pass off as unequivocal facts):

There's no AA policy saying you have to go into airplane mode when the door closes. The policy is when the crew announces.
That's a random webpage about WiFi in flight. I don't think either of us has access to the docs that AA filed with the FAA or their internal policy docs, but if we're going to dig through the public website, there's this:

When the aircraft doors are closed for departure, devices will need to be in airplane mode.
Seems pretty definitive to me, and given specifically in the context of AA getting FAA approval to allow electronic devices gate-to-gate.

Last edited by jordyn; Oct 17, 18 at 7:20 pm
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Old Oct 17, 18, 5:25 pm
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Originally Posted by HLCinCOU View Post
It has now been explained to you maybe a dozen times that OP didn't do anything wrong or illegal, and yet you keep repeating your strained argument which relies completely on that incorrect fact. NO ONE here has argued that only police can admonish somebody for breaking the law. Not one person. But OP didn't break the law. As such this non-rev passenger was out of line in trying to assert false authority to force compliance with non-existent rules.

Meanwhile, you're not likely to catch me on the Air New Zealand board lecturing a bunch of Kiwis on how they're breaking their own laws. If you insist on continuing, show some receipts; all our federal laws are searchable online.
Many of the earlier commenters commented not on the specific legality or lack thereof of the particular point, but rather on a general rule that one should avoid sticking one's beak in.

And there is a big difference between an observation and a command. "Stop!" is an imperative and an expression of authority. "You should stop" is an observation (perhaps the person is about to run into a wall). If someone says "It's illegal to operate a device blah blah blah" then they are merely making an observation, which *may* be incorrect, but is not rude or inappropriate in and of itself. If they say "turn off your device" they are making a command, which may be inappropriate.

I like to think it comes down to manners, not laws. If behaviour may bother someone, don't do it; if you see someone else doing it, then call it out. If someone's using the iron too long in a gym changing room, or eating chips noisily on a bus, or obstructing a narrow path in a supermarket, then they're being a bother to others. Personally I think it's a lack of proper socialisation at an early age (either boarding school, or sharing a dressing room for team sports would teach them to be more appreciative of the needs of others). In this case, a cellphone on a flight might well be a bother to others.
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Old Oct 17, 18, 5:32 pm
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Originally Posted by gmt4 View Post
There's a vast difference between someone committing (or attempting to commit) a violent act on an aircraft and a snarky response about shutting off a phone and you know it. Your attempt at hyperbole falls well short of a constructive counter argument.
Quantum's different, quality is the same. Either we're entitled to address "wrong" behaviour (and I note that as other posters have noted, the behaviour may NOT have been wrong), where wrong is defined as "in breach of a rule/law/social custom") or we're not. The amount of bother we create because we lack the courage to tell the person listening to music without headphones to knock it off (for example) is ridiculous.

I know I'm ranting, but if instead of snide passive aggressive photo taking or whining on FT after the fact, if we told the bugger putting his bare feet on the seat to not put his bare feet on the seat, the problem would be solved. We wouldn't need passenger shaming. If some large passenger is taking up your space, shove him back in his.

And I know this is further ranting, but there's a common thread in a lot of FT posters that seems to think the only way to address something negative is to elevate it (e.g. telling this offduty FA's boss) rather than addressing it at the root. if you think what she did is inappropriate, tell her. Don't go narking to the boss like some sort of milksop.
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Old Oct 17, 18, 10:29 pm
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What is the end point of this thread? There is not going to be a resolution no matter what "side" you are on. It's a one off.. Spend your time making our FFP better and not devaluation or lobby the gubmant.

Spoken my peace..
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Old Oct 18, 18, 12:04 pm
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Would it be so hard to stop texting BEFORE then? SMH
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Old Oct 18, 18, 12:40 pm
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
I'm not a police officer, so I assume if I ask you to kindly stop murdering somebody you'll tell me I have no authority?
Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
So, let me get this straight. The only person on a plane who is allowed to point out someone doing something wrong is a flight attendant (and/or the pilot, I guess).
The rest of us lack the requisite authority and should merely remain bystanders. "Stay in our lane" as the saying goes.
If my seatmate takes out a cleaver and starts hewing at the man in the middle seat, well, I might call the attendant I guess, but if I intervene I will get shocked FTers telling me that I should mind my own business.
But doesn't that create a paradox when an attendant asks for passenger help to subdue an unruly passenger? on the one hand, we have to obey, but on the other, in doing so we are usurping their rightful authority.

I'll say this: if the only people allowed to intervene when wrong is done are those invested with specific authority, like police, then we're going to need a lot more cops.

I know you know this, but these two comparisons are about as idiotic as I have seen. You are comparing an out of line off duty FA and cell phone policy with murder? I'll leave it at that.
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Old Oct 18, 18, 12:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Ramonmv View Post
Would it be so hard to stop texting BEFORE then? SMH
Before the door is closed? I think it's reasonable to assume given the current laws/policies that you can email or text until the announcement to stop has been made? Are pax now required to keep an eye on the door to anticipate when it is being closed?
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Old Oct 18, 18, 1:38 pm
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
Many of the earlier commenters commented not on the specific legality or lack thereof of the particular point, but rather on a general rule that one should avoid sticking one's beak in.

And there is a big difference between an observation and a command. "Stop!" is an imperative and an expression of authority. "You should stop" is an observation (perhaps the person is about to run into a wall). If someone says "It's illegal to operate a device blah blah blah" then they are merely making an observation, which *may* be incorrect, but is not rude or inappropriate in and of itself. If they say "turn off your device" they are making a command, which may be inappropriate.

I like to think it comes down to manners, not laws. If behaviour may bother someone, don't do it; if you see someone else doing it, then call it out. If someone's using the iron too long in a gym changing room, or eating chips noisily on a bus, or obstructing a narrow path in a supermarket, then they're being a bother to others. Personally I think it's a lack of proper socialisation at an early age (either boarding school, or sharing a dressing room for team sports would teach them to be more appreciative of the needs of others). In this case, a cellphone on a flight might well be a bother to others.
Just because you make a command doesn't mean you have authority. Authority and issuing commands are unrelated. As in, neither one necessarily has anything to do with the other.
In terms of "should", at least in the US, most people would say that is a request or even a command. To show you that point, if you fly in the US you often hear flight attendants say "you need to ..." Are they just making an observation?
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Old Oct 18, 18, 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Ramonmv View Post
Would it be so hard to stop texting BEFORE then? SMH
not hard at all, but I prefer to follow the example of the FAs in their jumpseats during taxi/takeoff: I keep texting/emailing during/after takeoff until I lose cell signal about 5K-10K feet.
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Old Oct 18, 18, 7:46 pm
  #101  
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
And there is a big difference between an observation and a command. "Stop!" is an imperative and an expression of authority.
No, it's not. Shouting STOP doesn't even imply authority. The manager of my company has a six year old son who often comes to the office; I quite like him. Sometimes he shouts "STOP." That hardly means that he has any authority.
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Old Oct 18, 18, 8:26 pm
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Entitled much?
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Old Oct 18, 18, 8:27 pm
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But why do you need to? Get a life, and stop feeling so entitled.
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Old Oct 18, 18, 10:23 pm
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It’s funny because when I landed in Phoenix a few days ago during a flash flood warning a couple of loud alarms went off in the cockpit which turned out to be the phones of the pilots who had clearly not put their phones in airplane mode. Once we had landed everyone else’s phone started going off with the emergency warning as people turned airplane mode off.

Another time I was on a transcon flight and my phone wouldn’t connect to the Wi-Fi. The flight attendant switched airplane mode on and off as part of their troubleshooting efforts.

I share these anecdotes simply because I think that most people take a far less hardline stance on this than the OP’s neighbor on their flight.
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Old Oct 25, 18, 12:55 pm
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
Many of the earlier commenters commented not on the specific legality or lack thereof of the particular point, but rather on a general rule that one should avoid sticking one's beak in.
Yeah, they did. And then you went off on some excruciating and terrible nonsense faux-philosophical diatribe on the nature of law and all people being empowered to enforce it, which 100% relied on the incorrect fact of OP having violated a law. Go reread your posts and try to make sense of them in a world where OP did not violate any law or airline policy. Otherwise known as this world.

The rest of your post appears to have no meaningful content, so I won't bother commenting on it.

Last edited by HLCinCOU; Oct 25, 18 at 3:53 pm
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