Parker Threatens End of Changes/Change Fees to Non-Refundable Fares
Sep 20, 2018, 11:34 am
#61
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DTW
Programs: Alaska, Delta, Southwest
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As I see it, this is like the parable of the boiling frog. Had we railed against checked baggage fees by clogging the boarding process with carry-ons, they’d have gone away. Had we boycotted properties with mandatory “resort fees” before they propagated, they’d have gone away.
Hotels and car rental agencies manage to turn a profit while only charging an extra 10% or so to pay later and cancel without penalty. With the airlines, it’s around double, and you still have to prepay even flexible fares, and the airlines still enjoy the benefits of overbooking. I see two major differences between these businesses: 1) The cost of entry into the airline business is very high, and 2) Mergers and acquisitions have practically eliminated competition. The “big 3” set fares and policies in lockstep with each other, and you’ve got no choice but to take it.
Sep 20, 2018, 12:02 pm
#62
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Congress was behind allowing US Customers the 24-hr period to cancel a booking and I have utilized that many times since the law was passed. a Change fee I am not against, it's the price-gauging at the last-minute that I don't like. If one buys a ticket at $250 roundtrip and then simply wants to take an earlier flight home on that same day, then I don't think it's right they have to pay $200 to change PLUS the fare is now $1200!! I think that is more what consumers deep-down are upset about. Because in theory, the only reason that seat sold to begin with was because it was priced at $250. Many American airline consumers are budget-conscious and it stinks to be reamed last-minute. It's also one thing for solo business travelers who's company is reimbursing that change fee (or that buy full-fare economy to begin with) and another for a family of 4-5 on vacation. I know my brother always flies Southwest for that reason alone.
2) How many families of 4-5 on vacation want to take an earlier flight home anyway? It's about zero. Families on vacation are the most likely type of passenger to show up for their booked flight.
Sep 20, 2018, 12:07 pm
#64
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It's true. Walk up fares are all about gouging corporate travelers. To my mind, the thought process is similar to the rationalization shoplifters use. Hey, they're a big company; they can afford it.
Sep 20, 2018, 12:40 pm
#65
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Sep 20, 2018, 12:49 pm
#66
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And that's only ONE time per any given ticket. Making subsequent changes will incur a fee. Small distinction, but let's not paint Southwest as some great alternative. I find even their "wanna get away" fares are the same or higher than the competition on the same routes.
Sep 20, 2018, 1:18 pm
#67
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: USA
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On the other hand, Southwest does NOT offer same-day confirmed for a fixed price (like $75). To make a confirmed change you always have to pay the fare difference. Hey, at least they're consistent.
Sep 20, 2018, 1:39 pm
#68
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 339
FWIW, whether it’s a coincidence or a move to try and stick it to Parker/AA, F9 has made a surprising move in lowering and eliminating change fees.
Changes beyond 90 days out are now free, they are $49 if 14-90 days out, and $99 less than 14 days prior. Seems like a very fair structure, and obviously similar to the old AS model. With such cheap fares, it’s entirely possible your ticket is less than the cost of a change fee, but nonetheless, seems surprising to me.
Changes beyond 90 days out are now free, they are $49 if 14-90 days out, and $99 less than 14 days prior. Seems like a very fair structure, and obviously similar to the old AS model. With such cheap fares, it’s entirely possible your ticket is less than the cost of a change fee, but nonetheless, seems surprising to me.
Sep 20, 2018, 1:55 pm
#69
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The whole WN argument gets nowhere.
If people liked the business model, it would have wiped the legacies off the map years ago. But, they don't and it hasn't.
1. Lack of an international network.
2. No interline agreement.
3. No IRRPS handling.
4. No seat assignments.
5. No F
6. No E+, MCE, C+
7. Line up like pre-school
Some people are OK with this, but not a significant chunk of the HVC market. Anyone who thinks that AA making inflexible tickets what they say they are, e.g. "inflexible" will cause a mass exodus to WN is mistaken.
If people liked the business model, it would have wiped the legacies off the map years ago. But, they don't and it hasn't.
1. Lack of an international network.
2. No interline agreement.
3. No IRRPS handling.
4. No seat assignments.
5. No F
6. No E+, MCE, C+
7. Line up like pre-school
Some people are OK with this, but not a significant chunk of the HVC market. Anyone who thinks that AA making inflexible tickets what they say they are, e.g. "inflexible" will cause a mass exodus to WN is mistaken.
Sep 20, 2018, 2:03 pm
#70
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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Posts: 13,913
WN doesn't serve all business travelers needs and yes some business travelers wouldn't be caught dead on a WN flight. However, I've met my share of domestic business travelers that swear by WN. Direct flights with frequency, no change fees, a consistent experience and if using a secondary airport (for example ISP over LGA or JFK) less flight delays. Some people do not enjoy flying and just want to "get there."
Next time you all are in Y (which is where most business flyers can be found) notice how many sit down and immediately get lost in a phone and then a laptop. They don't seem to give a damn about anything else.
Next time you all are in Y (which is where most business flyers can be found) notice how many sit down and immediately get lost in a phone and then a laptop. They don't seem to give a damn about anything else.
Sep 20, 2018, 2:09 pm
#71
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: San Francisco
Programs: AA EXP; Marriott BonVoy Titanium Elite, Marriott LT Plat.
Posts: 1,717
I think it's a big enough of a deal that AA will balk at this challenge.
Some have equated to situation to the fact that you purchased a ticket to a game of some sort an aren't able to attend for whatever reason. No one is looking for a change of venue option.
One will either be forced to buy the more expensive refundable tickets or just chalk it up as a lost otherwise.
Some have equated to situation to the fact that you purchased a ticket to a game of some sort an aren't able to attend for whatever reason. No one is looking for a change of venue option.
One will either be forced to buy the more expensive refundable tickets or just chalk it up as a lost otherwise.
Sep 20, 2018, 2:11 pm
#72
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: USA
Programs: Chase Sapphire Reserve, WFBF
Posts: 1,573
The whole WN argument gets nowhere.
If people liked the business model, it would have wiped the legacies off the map years ago. But, they don't and it hasn't.
1. Lack of an international network.
2. No interline agreement.
3. No IRRPS handling.
4. No seat assignments.
5. No F
6. No E+, MCE, C+
7. Line up like pre-school
Some people are OK with this, but not a significant chunk of the HVC market. Anyone who thinks that AA making inflexible tickets what they say they are, e.g. "inflexible" will cause a mass exodus to WN is mistaken.
If people liked the business model, it would have wiped the legacies off the map years ago. But, they don't and it hasn't.
1. Lack of an international network.
2. No interline agreement.
3. No IRRPS handling.
4. No seat assignments.
5. No F
6. No E+, MCE, C+
7. Line up like pre-school
Some people are OK with this, but not a significant chunk of the HVC market. Anyone who thinks that AA making inflexible tickets what they say they are, e.g. "inflexible" will cause a mass exodus to WN is mistaken.
1. customers who expect to make frequent changes
2. customers who expect to make occasional changes
3. customers who do not expect to make any changes.
Most customers in segment 1 are already buying flexible tickets. Most customers in segment 3 are either already buying basic economy or wouldn't care about the new restriction. So we are left with segment 2, which is people who want the flexibility to make changes but are willing to pay a fee to do so because they don't do it frequently enough to make the flexible ticket worth the price. In that segment, you don't think WN provides any pressure on AA? I'm not talking about markets like LAX-LON. I'm talking about markets like CHI-DAL, where there's a short flight with lots of frequency, and lots of business travelers whose plans sometimes change.
Sep 20, 2018, 3:07 pm
#73
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
Some people are OK with this, but not a significant chunk of the HVC market. Anyone who thinks that AA making inflexible tickets what they say they are, e.g. "inflexible" will cause a mass exodus to WN is mistaken.
Sep 20, 2018, 8:58 pm
#74
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lafayette, LA
Programs: AA EXP 2MM, BA Gold, UA Gold MM, DL SM MM, Hyatt Glob, HH Diam, Marriott Ti/LT Plat, IHG Plat
Posts: 274
No. I thought about it, but this was at the end of a long Skype call from overseas, the agent seemed competent and friendly, and she had already volunteered the information that she had consulted with her supervisor and the rate desk to see if they could get the fare lower. (I had to pay a $180 fare difference on top of the $250 change fee.) I doubted that hanging up and calling again would produce a better result, and it would have cost me another 20 minutes or so. And I don't think she was making up the memo that said no change fee waivers unless the reason is really serious.
Sep 21, 2018, 7:17 am
#75
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
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The question is would AA lose more corporate business that would offset the impact from use it or lose it tickets... this would make historical revenue models irrelevant for a period of time as likely behavior would change (more people might fly if the value of the entire ticket would be lost and changes can't be made.)
In the business world, at least, AA does not compete against UA and DL. It is competing against Skype, Zoom, and WebEx.
The smug FlyerTalk view of Southwest as this eccentric, grubby last-resort alternative that appeals to no truly refined person is objectively ridiculous. Most of the things WN lacks (F, lounges, intercontinental routes) are irrelevant to many, even many HVFs. In this context FT is the eccentric view.
Note that WN's share of the business travel market has risen steadily in this decade even though it does not serve HKG or CDG. The question in Doug Parker's office has to be whether more restrictions on discount tickets would further accelerate that trend.
It sure would for me. I have clients with fluxy calendars who would not happily eat very many $400 K tickets, would balk at $900+ Y tickets, and would likely respond by narrowing the options to: Southwest or Skype.
Last edited by BearX220; Sep 21, 2018 at 7:22 am