Jan 3, 2018, 5:05 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
AA has increased award availability at the SAAver / MileSAAver level, apparently at the cost of reducing the availability of nonstop and direct routing and increasing availability requiring connections using married segment logic.
This means those originating travel at one hub may well find themselves forced to connect through another hub - whose residents will also be required to connect through another hub. This is suspected to be a way of accommodating SAAver awards without competing with those purchasing more convenient nonstop routing. See post #17 by ashill.
Gary Leff: “Cranky Flier got American to confirm last week that much of the space they’ve opened up is on connecting flights. They’re offering married segment availability — award space that’s highly restrictive...”
See American Significantly Increases Coach Award Space On Connecting Flights, By Cranky Flier on Dec 21, 2017
How to Game American’s New Connecting Flight Award Availability to Get the Ticket You Want, by Gary Leff on December 26, 2017 but see post #75 by Psyclone*Jack; this loophole may now be closed.
"When selling seats for through flights and the desired inventory is not available, you cannot opt to sell the flight point-to-point. If sold point-to-point, the error response MULTIPLE SEGMENTS FOR SAME FLIGHT - SELL AS ONE SEGMENT will be received, indicating this booking is not allowed. Overriding the error check by ending the PNR twice is not acceptable." Link to FT thread; see wikipost info by JonNYC and hillrider.
"Sometimes when you’re searching for award space... you’ll find that some seats will show as available when you search for them from origin to destination, but when you call to book the flights segment-by-segment, those flights show as unavailable."
"Married segment logic is a tool used by airlines that restricts availability based on origin and destination, rather than by segments."(DCTA, on Boarding Area)
Link to Boarding Area: Sunday Reader Question: What are married segments?
Link to Worldspan page with extensive information on MSL and coding.
Older posts have been archived off to https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...nnections.html
This means those originating travel at one hub may well find themselves forced to connect through another hub - whose residents will also be required to connect through another hub. This is suspected to be a way of accommodating SAAver awards without competing with those purchasing more convenient nonstop routing. See post #17 by ashill.
Gary Leff: “Cranky Flier got American to confirm last week that much of the space they’ve opened up is on connecting flights. They’re offering married segment availability — award space that’s highly restrictive...”
See American Significantly Increases Coach Award Space On Connecting Flights, By Cranky Flier on Dec 21, 2017
How to Game American’s New Connecting Flight Award Availability to Get the Ticket You Want, by Gary Leff on December 26, 2017 but see post #75 by Psyclone*Jack; this loophole may now be closed.
Married Segment Logic and Effects on Awards
"When selling seats for through flights and the desired inventory is not available, you cannot opt to sell the flight point-to-point. If sold point-to-point, the error response MULTIPLE SEGMENTS FOR SAME FLIGHT - SELL AS ONE SEGMENT will be received, indicating this booking is not allowed. Overriding the error check by ending the PNR twice is not acceptable." Link to FT thread; see wikipost info by JonNYC and hillrider.
"Sometimes when you’re searching for award space... you’ll find that some seats will show as available when you search for them from origin to destination, but when you call to book the flights segment-by-segment, those flights show as unavailable."
"Married segment logic is a tool used by airlines that restricts availability based on origin and destination, rather than by segments."(DCTA, on Boarding Area)
Married segment logic controls routings based on origin and destination, rather than segment-by-segment availability. Boarding Area
From Amadeus: Married Segment Control Link
Amadeus Married Segment Control is a revenue maximisation tool that ensures that airline revenue management decisions, made at availability time, are applied throughout the booking process. It prevents agents bypassing availability controls, based on origin and destination (O&D) information. It also improves both load factors and revenue forecasting accuracy.
Key benefits
Amadeus Married Segment Control is a revenue maximisation tool that ensures that airline revenue management decisions, made at availability time, are applied throughout the booking process. It prevents agents bypassing availability controls, based on origin and destination (O&D) information. It also improves both load factors and revenue forecasting accuracy.
Key benefits
- Ensures more effective forecasting by preventing O&D misuse and matching revenue forecasts with final revenues.
- Improves consistency of sales processes by controlling travel agent selling behaviour.
- Fully customisable and flexible solution that meets airline unique system requirements.
Older posts have been archived off to https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...nnections.html
More award availability restricted by married segments / connections
May 16, 2019, 12:09 pm
#406
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
Check for award availability for A-C with a connection in B
If you have A-B currently in business c;lass and B-cCin economy class. then if it shows that there is availability in business class for B-C , then you can change B-C to business class
If you have A-B currently in economy c;lass. and B-C in business class then if it shows that there is availability in business class for A-B , then you can change A-B to business class
What you cannot do is just look at availability for the desired sector as a standalone booking amd expect to be able to change. It may be that B-C when not married to A-B is available but not when married
It is also possible for B-C to not be available standalone , but to be available when married with A-B
The agent was completely correct in saying that you can change if the availability is there. Award booking classes are no different to any other and this is how married segment logic works on all airlines where I have seen it used
I cannot see how it can be called an excessively harsh or severe policy of AA's when it is just the standard way that married segment logic works
May 17, 2019, 8:12 pm
#407
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Programs: AA EXP, UA GLD, Bonvoy Titan, HH Dia, WoH Exp
Posts: 2,673
Let's say one booked a business class award North America- Europe Saver award with the itinerary as:
A - B (TATL U) followed by B - C (domestic T) as for the itinerary it wasn't showing B - C availability in U.
A week later B - C shows U availability. Can you call and get the B - C domestic segment upgraded from T to U? In the past, it has not been a problem to do this when one segment which originally only had T availability later has U availability.
Or does U have to be available on A - B and B - C at that later date? In most/many situations, once TATL U is booked and that award seat taken, that U inventory never comes back until maybe a day or two before the flight (if you are lucky).
A - B (TATL U) followed by B - C (domestic T) as for the itinerary it wasn't showing B - C availability in U.
A week later B - C shows U availability. Can you call and get the B - C domestic segment upgraded from T to U? In the past, it has not been a problem to do this when one segment which originally only had T availability later has U availability.
Or does U have to be available on A - B and B - C at that later date? In most/many situations, once TATL U is booked and that award seat taken, that U inventory never comes back until maybe a day or two before the flight (if you are lucky).
May 17, 2019, 10:13 pm
#409
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Programs: AA EXP, UA GLD, Bonvoy Titan, HH Dia, WoH Exp
Posts: 2,673
HUACA and second agent said she would check with help desk. After a brief hold, second agent returned saying help desk said it was ok to upgrade the B-C segment from T to U.
So which agent was correct with their information? Was I lucky with the second agent or was the first agent misinformed?
May 18, 2019, 1:05 am
#410
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
First phone agent said since A-C via B is no longer available as a business saver award (presumably my booking a week ago depleted the A-B U inventory?), she can't upgrade the B-C due to "married segment" rule. She said U had to be available in both segments of the A-B-C itinerary at the same time in order to upgrade the B-C segment from T to U.
HUACA and second agent said she would check with help desk. After a brief hold, second agent returned saying help desk said it was ok to upgrade the B-C segment from T to U.
So which agent was correct with their information? Was I lucky with the second agent or was the first agent misinformed?
HUACA and second agent said she would check with help desk. After a brief hold, second agent returned saying help desk said it was ok to upgrade the B-C segment from T to U.
So which agent was correct with their information? Was I lucky with the second agent or was the first agent misinformed?
Making a change with married segment availability is no different to making a change where there is no married segment availbility in place
The only availability that is needed is for the sector being change - but has to be available as per the A-C search
May 18, 2019, 2:46 am
#411
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca., USA
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat; Bonvoy Titanium Lifetime Elite;Hyatt Globalist; HHonors Diamond; United Silver
Posts: 8,304
In other words (I think)
when you search expertflyer for A/C connecting in B, it will show availability for each segment separately. If you are in A-B in first already, then when you search A-C via B, you just need availability on B-C, not in both segments.
However, if you just search B-C, you aren’t querying it correctly.
(thanks to Dave Noble for me finally understanding it)
when you search expertflyer for A/C connecting in B, it will show availability for each segment separately. If you are in A-B in first already, then when you search A-C via B, you just need availability on B-C, not in both segments.
However, if you just search B-C, you aren’t querying it correctly.
(thanks to Dave Noble for me finally understanding it)
May 18, 2019, 4:02 am
#412
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
In other words (I think)
when you search expertflyer for A/C connecting in B, it will show availability for each segment separately. If you are in A-B in first already, then when you search A-C via B, you just need availability on B-C, not in both segments.
However, if you just search B-C, you aren’t querying it correctly.
(thanks to Dave Noble for me finally understanding it)
when you search expertflyer for A/C connecting in B, it will show availability for each segment separately. If you are in A-B in first already, then when you search A-C via B, you just need availability on B-C, not in both segments.
However, if you just search B-C, you aren’t querying it correctly.
(thanks to Dave Noble for me finally understanding it)
You search for U class for A-C via B
If it returns
A-B U0
B-C U1
Then you can change the B-C from T class to be in U class whikst leaving A-B alone
It is important that you have searched for A-C via B and found the availability and not jus searched for B-C.
Other than having to find availability based on the through journey, there is nothing different than it was befoe in process
May 23, 2019, 11:24 am
#413
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Manhattan Beach, California
Programs: BMI Diamond Club Gold forever
Posts: 6,367
This development has led to very different results and challenges for those of us in place like SEA that is a big market but one which AA doesnt really cover well with its own metal, especially for EU or Asia travel.
I used to search EF out of the gateways, usually i could find 5x biz awards at the low level from LAX or DFW if i was diligent. Then i would grab some crazy connection, maybe even separate us for the domestics, and over time look to improve that. That simply doesnt work in this new world. Same issues for the return flights from EU or Asia. It’s crystal clear that the same 5x DFW-LHR wont necessarily exist (read “never exists”) when you throw the SEA-DFW or SEA-PHX-DFW segments on. And the problem with SEA is compounded, the ex-SEA searches dont work well because we no longer have the direct flight to JFK and the search engine is not great at using AS as an intermediate segment, especially if the AS cabin is Y and you are searching Biz or F.
But there is a silver lining, it looks like AS segments can be added without regards to married segment logic. I found this out by chance and more or less bagged 5 unicorns as a result. I had given up on exSEA and was looking at SFO and LAX since i can buy cheap connections there. On my first search of SFO-LHR for 5 on the date i wanted, the AA site showed 85k and when i clicked on it I found it was indeed all flagship F, including SFO-JFK with the connection also in F on the 77W onward to LHR. Score, i was hoping for 57.5k per ticket in U but we’ll take 85k per ticket for the F experience all the way!
I held these immediately and with little effort found an AS flight the night before (in Y), there were scattered flights with F but i decided to keep is together in Y. I called in and behold, got that added in and kept it as a single award (and added an EF saved search for A class to this AS segment). I mentioned married segments to the agent and she said her understanding is that AS segments don’t bring that into play. I asked on the other end too, could i add a BA, AY or IB segment on to the end without regard for married segments and she said yes. So that is something to keep in mind under this new reality, leverage AS if you find something close, or even start out looking for AA gateways where you can use AS as a connection.
I used to search EF out of the gateways, usually i could find 5x biz awards at the low level from LAX or DFW if i was diligent. Then i would grab some crazy connection, maybe even separate us for the domestics, and over time look to improve that. That simply doesnt work in this new world. Same issues for the return flights from EU or Asia. It’s crystal clear that the same 5x DFW-LHR wont necessarily exist (read “never exists”) when you throw the SEA-DFW or SEA-PHX-DFW segments on. And the problem with SEA is compounded, the ex-SEA searches dont work well because we no longer have the direct flight to JFK and the search engine is not great at using AS as an intermediate segment, especially if the AS cabin is Y and you are searching Biz or F.
But there is a silver lining, it looks like AS segments can be added without regards to married segment logic. I found this out by chance and more or less bagged 5 unicorns as a result. I had given up on exSEA and was looking at SFO and LAX since i can buy cheap connections there. On my first search of SFO-LHR for 5 on the date i wanted, the AA site showed 85k and when i clicked on it I found it was indeed all flagship F, including SFO-JFK with the connection also in F on the 77W onward to LHR. Score, i was hoping for 57.5k per ticket in U but we’ll take 85k per ticket for the F experience all the way!
I held these immediately and with little effort found an AS flight the night before (in Y), there were scattered flights with F but i decided to keep is together in Y. I called in and behold, got that added in and kept it as a single award (and added an EF saved search for A class to this AS segment). I mentioned married segments to the agent and she said her understanding is that AS segments don’t bring that into play. I asked on the other end too, could i add a BA, AY or IB segment on to the end without regard for married segments and she said yes. So that is something to keep in mind under this new reality, leverage AS if you find something close, or even start out looking for AA gateways where you can use AS as a connection.
Jun 9, 2019, 8:40 am
#414
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Manhattan Beach, California
Programs: BMI Diamond Club Gold forever
Posts: 6,367
Funny, there's a VTW post about SFO-JFK-LHR j/f saaver level award availability on July. Still a number of days with 5x or more business milesaaver awards, but the F seats have dwindled, not seeing 5 first milesaaver awards on any day now. This availability doesn’t appear to have been a glitch, which is quite odd given how few milesaaver awards there were/are via LAX or DFW (none for the most part).
Jun 9, 2019, 2:09 pm
#415
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
Funny, there's a VTW post about SFO-JFK-LHR j/f saaver level award availability on July. Still a number of days with 5x or more business milesaaver awards, but the F seats have dwindled, not seeing 5 first milesaaver awards on any day now. This availability doesn’t appear to have been a glitch, which is quite odd given how few milesaaver awards there were/are via LAX or DFW (none for the most part).
Jun 13, 2019, 5:55 pm
#416
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Seattle, WA
Programs: AS 100K, AA EXP, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 294
Very confusing on expertflyer
I've noticed this too many times now. I search A-C on expertflyer with a connection in B, and then I see two itineraries: both with the same A-B flight and different B-C flights. In one option, A-B is available but not B-C, but in the other option, B-C is but not A-B, even though that same A-B flight was available when paired with the other, unavailable connection.
Since this is confusing, here's an example:
As you can see. AA 177 shows as available ONLY when there's no corresponding SFO->PHX availability.
And this seriously is what I see all over. Does anyone have any clues as to whether the availability on the first flight actually means something?
Since this is confusing, here's an example:
As you can see. AA 177 shows as available ONLY when there's no corresponding SFO->PHX availability.
And this seriously is what I see all over. Does anyone have any clues as to whether the availability on the first flight actually means something?
Jun 13, 2019, 6:00 pm
#417
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca., USA
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat; Bonvoy Titanium Lifetime Elite;Hyatt Globalist; HHonors Diamond; United Silver
Posts: 8,304
I don’t see T available on the transcon and I don’t see Z available on the short flight. I don’t see what you are talking about.
Did you check Aa.com. It might be possible to go for a Z award with a voluntary downgrade on the last leg.
Did you check Aa.com. It might be possible to go for a Z award with a voluntary downgrade on the last leg.
Last edited by beachfan; Jun 13, 2019 at 7:09 pm
Jun 13, 2019, 6:13 pm
#418
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
I've noticed this too many times now. I search A-C on expertflyer with a connection in B, and then I see two itineraries: both with the same A-B flight and different B-C flights. In one option, A-B is available but not B-C, but in the other option, B-C is but not A-B, even though that same A-B flight was available when paired with the other, unavailable connection.
Since this is confusing, here's an example:
As you can see. AA 177 shows as available ONLY when there's no corresponding SFO->PHX availability.
And this seriously is what I see all over. Does anyone have any clues as to whether the availability on the first flight actually means something?
Since this is confusing, here's an example:
As you can see. AA 177 shows as available ONLY when there's no corresponding SFO->PHX availability.
And this seriously is what I see all over. Does anyone have any clues as to whether the availability on the first flight actually means something?
Availability is based on origin-destination and flights taken. A-B might be available in conjuntion with one B-C flight but not with another - perfectly normal
Availability on the 1st flight could be of benefit to someone already holding a ticket on the 2nd flight and wanting to change to the 1st flight
Jun 13, 2019, 6:18 pm
#419
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Seattle, WA
Programs: AS 100K, AA EXP, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 294
And the reason I'm posting this is because this is what I've seen on many searches in the past. One of two legs seems to have availability, except when the other flight also has it.
Jun 13, 2019, 6:26 pm
#420
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Seattle, WA
Programs: AS 100K, AA EXP, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 294
Here's another example. I'm not kidding I see this everywhere:
(in this particular case, note that AA6058 is available only when the transcon doesn't have availability. And the AA185 and AA56 transcons are available when there's no connecting availability only.
Since this happens so much, I'm just so confused I can't find almost any instances where there's two flights paired together that actually both have availability.
(in this particular case, note that AA6058 is available only when the transcon doesn't have availability. And the AA185 and AA56 transcons are available when there's no connecting availability only.
Since this happens so much, I'm just so confused I can't find almost any instances where there's two flights paired together that actually both have availability.