Jan 3, 2018, 5:05 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
AA has increased award availability at the SAAver / MileSAAver level, apparently at the cost of reducing the availability of nonstop and direct routing and increasing availability requiring connections using married segment logic.
This means those originating travel at one hub may well find themselves forced to connect through another hub - whose residents will also be required to connect through another hub. This is suspected to be a way of accommodating SAAver awards without competing with those purchasing more convenient nonstop routing. See post #17 by ashill.
Gary Leff: “Cranky Flier got American to confirm last week that much of the space they’ve opened up is on connecting flights. They’re offering married segment availability — award space that’s highly restrictive...”
See American Significantly Increases Coach Award Space On Connecting Flights, By Cranky Flier on Dec 21, 2017
How to Game American’s New Connecting Flight Award Availability to Get the Ticket You Want, by Gary Leff on December 26, 2017 but see post #75 by Psyclone*Jack; this loophole may now be closed.
"When selling seats for through flights and the desired inventory is not available, you cannot opt to sell the flight point-to-point. If sold point-to-point, the error response MULTIPLE SEGMENTS FOR SAME FLIGHT - SELL AS ONE SEGMENT will be received, indicating this booking is not allowed. Overriding the error check by ending the PNR twice is not acceptable." Link to FT thread; see wikipost info by JonNYC and hillrider.
"Sometimes when you’re searching for award space... you’ll find that some seats will show as available when you search for them from origin to destination, but when you call to book the flights segment-by-segment, those flights show as unavailable."
"Married segment logic is a tool used by airlines that restricts availability based on origin and destination, rather than by segments."(DCTA, on Boarding Area)
Link to Boarding Area: Sunday Reader Question: What are married segments?
Link to Worldspan page with extensive information on MSL and coding.
Older posts have been archived off to https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...nnections.html
This means those originating travel at one hub may well find themselves forced to connect through another hub - whose residents will also be required to connect through another hub. This is suspected to be a way of accommodating SAAver awards without competing with those purchasing more convenient nonstop routing. See post #17 by ashill.
Gary Leff: “Cranky Flier got American to confirm last week that much of the space they’ve opened up is on connecting flights. They’re offering married segment availability — award space that’s highly restrictive...”
See American Significantly Increases Coach Award Space On Connecting Flights, By Cranky Flier on Dec 21, 2017
How to Game American’s New Connecting Flight Award Availability to Get the Ticket You Want, by Gary Leff on December 26, 2017 but see post #75 by Psyclone*Jack; this loophole may now be closed.
Married Segment Logic and Effects on Awards
"When selling seats for through flights and the desired inventory is not available, you cannot opt to sell the flight point-to-point. If sold point-to-point, the error response MULTIPLE SEGMENTS FOR SAME FLIGHT - SELL AS ONE SEGMENT will be received, indicating this booking is not allowed. Overriding the error check by ending the PNR twice is not acceptable." Link to FT thread; see wikipost info by JonNYC and hillrider.
"Sometimes when you’re searching for award space... you’ll find that some seats will show as available when you search for them from origin to destination, but when you call to book the flights segment-by-segment, those flights show as unavailable."
"Married segment logic is a tool used by airlines that restricts availability based on origin and destination, rather than by segments."(DCTA, on Boarding Area)
Married segment logic controls routings based on origin and destination, rather than segment-by-segment availability. Boarding Area
From Amadeus: Married Segment Control Link
Amadeus Married Segment Control is a revenue maximisation tool that ensures that airline revenue management decisions, made at availability time, are applied throughout the booking process. It prevents agents bypassing availability controls, based on origin and destination (O&D) information. It also improves both load factors and revenue forecasting accuracy.
Key benefits
Amadeus Married Segment Control is a revenue maximisation tool that ensures that airline revenue management decisions, made at availability time, are applied throughout the booking process. It prevents agents bypassing availability controls, based on origin and destination (O&D) information. It also improves both load factors and revenue forecasting accuracy.
Key benefits
- Ensures more effective forecasting by preventing O&D misuse and matching revenue forecasts with final revenues.
- Improves consistency of sales processes by controlling travel agent selling behaviour.
- Fully customisable and flexible solution that meets airline unique system requirements.
Older posts have been archived off to https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...nnections.html
More award availability restricted by married segments / connections
Dec 14, 2018, 2:05 pm
#286
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
With cash tickets it can also be a very big price differemce if unable to get booked. in a QR sale, trying to book CMB-LHR - where I class was unavailable the regular prices of the higher fares classes were around double the sale fares
Dec 14, 2018, 5:45 pm
#287
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,900
That is hardy relevant to the question of how married sectors work. It is also not necessarilr going to be double the price - that depends on the routing
With cash tickets it can also be a very big price differemce if unable to get booked. in a QR sale, trying to book CMB-LHR - where I class was unavailable the regular prices of the higher fares classes were around double the sale fares
With cash tickets it can also be a very big price differemce if unable to get booked. in a QR sale, trying to book CMB-LHR - where I class was unavailable the regular prices of the higher fares classes were around double the sale fares
I disagree that it won't double the price. If one segment isn't available as a saver award because of married segment rules, then you can only ticket it as an AAnytime. The minimum price increase is double. It can be 4x, 5x in price. With cash tickets, I'll accept that it can be double as you said, but I suspect that's rare and doubt you'll see 4x or more. Is that not true?
Last edited by rrgg; Dec 14, 2018 at 5:55 pm
Dec 14, 2018, 7:17 pm
#288
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 17
So how is this married segment stuff now working if I've had an award ticket issued with a less-than-ideal connection time, and now I find a connecting flight that is leaving earlier. To change the ticket, do I need BOTH flight segments to now be available or can the agent simply swap out the better second flight for the original flight that I booked?.
Dec 14, 2018, 9:48 pm
#289
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,404
If it's an award route that has married segments, then you need both flight segments to be available to change. This was my exact experience, and I was unable to switch just one segment to a better flight, because the unchanged segment I originally booked was no longer available.
So let's say I have a 3-segment domestic trip. It's "doable" in two, but there were no award seats available when I booked. Is it now worthless to search for anything other than a complete origin-to-destination award routing, since it doesn't matter if there are any better segments (like one flight eliminating two) because they won't let me rebook piecemeal?
Dec 15, 2018, 3:40 pm
#290
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: WAS/NYC/LON
Programs: AA EXP, HH DIA, Hyatt DIA
Posts: 286
So let's say I have a 3-segment domestic trip. It's "doable" in two, but there were no award seats available when I booked. Is it now worthless to search for anything other than a complete origin-to-destination award routing, since it doesn't matter if there are any better segments (like one flight eliminating two) because they won't let me rebook piecemeal?
Dec 15, 2018, 3:49 pm
#291
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
I think that's the case (that you have to search for a complete origin-to-destination routing). @Davenoble's posts suggest that it may be possible to search for one flight that connects to your third flight if it's a valid married routing, but I don't know the specifics on how to even search for that unless the complete trip is bookable, which takes away that benefit.
If wanting to change to A-C-D, then should be ok with just needing A-C being available in conjection with C-D ; since C-D is already held, availability there should not be needed
Dec 15, 2018, 4:28 pm
#292
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Melbourne
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 188
I have a booking in D class YVR-DFW-MIA-LIR where because of married segments I believe I am forced to have 2 nights in MIA where I preferably wanted just an overnight because of connection times...Seats in D were and still are available DFW-MIA-LIR !!!
Dec 15, 2018, 6:07 pm
#293
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,404
If flying A-B-C-D and then wanting to do A-E-D , then would have to have the whole routing available
If wanting to change to A-C-D, then should be ok with just needing A-C being available in conjection with C-D ; since C-D is already held, availability there should not be needed
If wanting to change to A-C-D, then should be ok with just needing A-C being available in conjection with C-D ; since C-D is already held, availability there should not be needed
Dec 18, 2018, 8:24 am
#294
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 270
Thanks again. Does this work because it was a voluntary downgrade and/or because the segment was available when doing an origin to destination search?
If the latter, that would imply that existing segment inventory can be maintained even if it isn't currently available (as was in the example), as long as the changing segment is available in the origin to destination search (which wouldn't be visible on aa.com because that is all or nothing). Again, my experience searching with EF has been AA award AA inventory on connections is either available for both or neither, so I'm not sure how practical this is on an AA itinerary.
But, this could be a relief for the long haul scenario where one already holds inventory on the long haul Oneworld segment(s) and wants to modify the AA portion because those generally are not linked the same way.
Corrections appreciated.
If the latter, that would imply that existing segment inventory can be maintained even if it isn't currently available (as was in the example), as long as the changing segment is available in the origin to destination search (which wouldn't be visible on aa.com because that is all or nothing). Again, my experience searching with EF has been AA award AA inventory on connections is either available for both or neither, so I'm not sure how practical this is on an AA itinerary.
But, this could be a relief for the long haul scenario where one already holds inventory on the long haul Oneworld segment(s) and wants to modify the AA portion because those generally are not linked the same way.
Corrections appreciated.
If flying A-B-C-D and then wanting to do A-E-D , then would have to have the whole routing available
If wanting to change to A-C-D, then should be ok with just needing A-C being available in conjection with C-D ; since C-D is already held, availability there should not be needed
If wanting to change to A-C-D, then should be ok with just needing A-C being available in conjection with C-D ; since C-D is already held, availability there should not be needed
Examples in this thread have mainly been A-B-C ticketed, wanting to change to A-B' that is now available but keep B-C the same, which is not currently available, and not being allowed to do the change. I'm keeping with A-B-C-D as that is your example which you say would work with held inventory.
I'm missing something here regarding when and when not held and/or ticketed inventory can and can't be used during a change where it isn't currently available.
Thanks.
Dec 18, 2018, 1:27 pm
#295
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,550
Would appreciate some clarification here.
Can you explain why A-C-D works with C-D held but not currently available but something like A-B'-C-D won't work where A-B' is a new flight that currently has inventory and B-C-D are the inventory that is already held but not currently available ?
Can you explain why A-C-D works with C-D held but not currently available but something like A-B'-C-D won't work where A-B' is a new flight that currently has inventory and B-C-D are the inventory that is already held but not currently available ?
Dec 18, 2018, 2:40 pm
#296
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 270
Purchased/held in past:
A-B-C-D ; T1
Wanting to change to A-C-D at later date by removing a connection, current availability from searches:
A-C-D: T0
A-C :T1
C-D: T0
What I am understanding from your comments is that one can indeed change to A-C-D in this scenario, even though C-D is no longer available (but is ticketed and/or held) and A-C-D is not presently available. This is the underlying thing people have been having problems with, myself included, modifying an existing reservation and utilizing held inventory that is not presently available in combination with changed other segment inventory that is. Up until recently one could do this no questions asked. Thanks.
Dec 19, 2018, 8:02 am
#297
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,222
My understanding is that you would need to see something like this on ExpertFlyer:
A-C-D: T1 / T0
And then you could change the ABC legs to AC, while keeping your existing CD leg that's already booked in T even though there's no new T available.
I *think* ExpertFlyer will still show itineraries where one leg has the inventory and the other doesn't. Or maybe you can "force" it by also requesting Y inventory.
It's definitely a bit more confusing, particularly those of us used to the black-and-white / it's either available or it isn't, on a segment-by-segment basis from ExpertFlyer.
A-C-D: T1 / T0
And then you could change the ABC legs to AC, while keeping your existing CD leg that's already booked in T even though there's no new T available.
I *think* ExpertFlyer will still show itineraries where one leg has the inventory and the other doesn't. Or maybe you can "force" it by also requesting Y inventory.
It's definitely a bit more confusing, particularly those of us used to the black-and-white / it's either available or it isn't, on a segment-by-segment basis from ExpertFlyer.
Dec 19, 2018, 1:27 pm
#298
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 877
I have GIG-MCO-CLT-AUS. with an overnight in MCO. GIG-MCO is LATAM. CLT-AUS segment is in X; everything else in U.
I am trying to aa.com shows MCO-DFW-AUS with an overnight in DFW on the same day as U inventory.
AA phone agents can’t see MCO-DFW-AUS. 3 of them claim their search engine is now different than aa.com and they can’t see it.
One agent suggested putting MCO-DFW-AUS on hold on my end, which I did. Their IT system wouldn’t let her move the domestic segments into my existing itinerary.
I have never heard agents claim their inventory is different from aa.com and they can't see it even though it is bookable.
Thoughts?
I am trying to aa.com shows MCO-DFW-AUS with an overnight in DFW on the same day as U inventory.
AA phone agents can’t see MCO-DFW-AUS. 3 of them claim their search engine is now different than aa.com and they can’t see it.
One agent suggested putting MCO-DFW-AUS on hold on my end, which I did. Their IT system wouldn’t let her move the domestic segments into my existing itinerary.
I have never heard agents claim their inventory is different from aa.com and they can't see it even though it is bookable.
Thoughts?
Dec 19, 2018, 3:52 pm
#299
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 270
I have GIG-MCO-CLT-AUS. with an overnight in MCO. GIG-MCO is LATAM. CLT-AUS segment is in X; everything else in U.
I am trying to aa.com shows MCO-DFW-AUS with an overnight in DFW on the same day as U inventory.
AA phone agents can’t see MCO-DFW-AUS. 3 of them claim their search engine is now different than aa.com and they can’t see it.
One agent suggested putting MCO-DFW-AUS on hold on my end, which I did. Their IT system wouldn’t let her move the domestic segments into my existing itinerary.
I have never heard agents claim their inventory is different from aa.com and they can't see it even though it is bookable.
Thoughts?
I am trying to aa.com shows MCO-DFW-AUS with an overnight in DFW on the same day as U inventory.
AA phone agents can’t see MCO-DFW-AUS. 3 of them claim their search engine is now different than aa.com and they can’t see it.
One agent suggested putting MCO-DFW-AUS on hold on my end, which I did. Their IT system wouldn’t let her move the domestic segments into my existing itinerary.
I have never heard agents claim their inventory is different from aa.com and they can't see it even though it is bookable.
Thoughts?
My guess is that either GIG-MCO is no longer available and/or MCO-DFW-AUS increased availability due to married segment, but when combined with the long haul, is no longer applicable. This is an interesting test case, as the long haul is Latam, which presumably married segments would not apply as it is on a different carrier, non-codeshare. Would be interesting to see the EF segment results for GIG-AUS via MCO/DFW search.
Problem I've had with agents is now that they are searching origin to destination for a segment change, instead of the segment itself, with similar results as you are reporting. They don't take it well when you delicately have to call them a liar by stating aa.com/GDS is clearly showing availability. I think this is a result of a new IT system as you are saying. I finally convinced one agent to just check the segment, and she had to create an entirely new search/itinerary to do so. At which point she couldn't get it added. These are EP agents as well. HUCA enough and you might get someone who is willing and able to make it work, but this may be the think Jon is saying they are cracking down on now.
In the past, agents could do as you are saying, put the segments you want on hold on another itinerary and then they could go to another desk (rate?) to piece it together.
There is the "To Complete Itinerary" card, but who knows if that is even possible anymore with all these recent constraints being added.
Dec 19, 2018, 9:05 pm
#300
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 877
What are the individual segment availabilities?
My guess is that either GIG-MCO is no longer available and/or MCO-DFW-AUS increased availability due to married segment, but when combined with the long haul, is no longer applicable. This is an interesting test case, as the long haul is Latam, which presumably married segments would not apply as it is on a different carrier, non-codeshare. Would be interesting to see the EF segment results for GIG-AUS via MCO/DFW search.
Problem I've had with agents is now that they are searching origin to destination for a segment change, instead of the segment itself, with similar results as you are reporting. They don't take it well when you delicately have to call them a liar by stating aa.com/GDS is clearly showing availability. I think this is a result of a new IT system as you are saying. I finally convinced one agent to just check the segment, and she had to create an entirely new search/itinerary to do so. At which point she couldn't get it added. These are EP agents as well. HUCA enough and you might get someone who is willing and able to make it work, but this may be the think Jon is saying they are cracking down on now.
In the past, agents could do as you are saying, put the segments you want on hold on another itinerary and then they could go to another desk (rate?) to piece it together.
There is the "To Complete Itinerary" card, but who knows if that is even possible anymore with all these recent constraints being added.
My guess is that either GIG-MCO is no longer available and/or MCO-DFW-AUS increased availability due to married segment, but when combined with the long haul, is no longer applicable. This is an interesting test case, as the long haul is Latam, which presumably married segments would not apply as it is on a different carrier, non-codeshare. Would be interesting to see the EF segment results for GIG-AUS via MCO/DFW search.
Problem I've had with agents is now that they are searching origin to destination for a segment change, instead of the segment itself, with similar results as you are reporting. They don't take it well when you delicately have to call them a liar by stating aa.com/GDS is clearly showing availability. I think this is a result of a new IT system as you are saying. I finally convinced one agent to just check the segment, and she had to create an entirely new search/itinerary to do so. At which point she couldn't get it added. These are EP agents as well. HUCA enough and you might get someone who is willing and able to make it work, but this may be the think Jon is saying they are cracking down on now.
In the past, agents could do as you are saying, put the segments you want on hold on another itinerary and then they could go to another desk (rate?) to piece it together.
There is the "To Complete Itinerary" card, but who knows if that is even possible anymore with all these recent constraints being added.
what was bizarre is the agent could see MCO-DFW (U) + DFW-AUS (T).
I was at at my desk computer and could see the whole itinerary in U. I could go as far as selecting seats for all segments.
But it for whatever reason, the agent could not match the availability shown on aa.com via my desktop.
I then hen tried on my phone on the mobile site, and the mobile site showed the availability the agent saw.
I dont know know how this is happening. It is bizarre that inventory type changes based on what platform you use.