khibner

Prior to booking tickets for their honeymoon, my daughter-in-law went to the Chinese, French, and Italian Embassies to verify that she had the proper documentation to fly overseas. They were flying Des Moines, IA to Rome. When checking in, Lisa was first denied boarding due to not having proper Chinese documents. She was able to call the embassy, the embassy talked to American, and then all was okay. Next, American denied boarding due to having a Schnegen Visa issued from France. They said it needed to be from Italy as they were flying into Italy. HOWEVER, all embassies said it should be from France as that was the country where they were staying the longest. American did not listen and denied boarding for a 2nd time. Then American told them that they HAD to fly into France. Instead of a $2000 round trip flight for both of them, it was going to cost $6000 plus the additional cost of the flight from Paris to Rome. We went home and got them onto a flight with United for cash plus frequent flier miles. When they returned, we contacted the embassies and received a letter from several stating that American was WRONG and in error and that Lisa had every right to be on that plane. We have spent 6 months with American trying to be fully compensated for the ADDITIONAL costs that they incurred due to the 3 errors that American made. Lisa and Joe understand that they should pay $2000 for the flight, but American should pay for the expenses above the $2000 and reimburse them with the frequent flier miles that they had to use. Keep in mind too - they missed the first day of their honeymoon, and incurred costs from the hotel and tours, so they still had those expenses that American is not paying, but Joe and Lisa are. It is not right that American can make 3 errors in one flying transaction, have proof from a 3rd party that they were wrong, and not take full responsibility for their mistakes!!! Lisa and Joe did everything that they could - they went to the embassies and bought travel insurance. American did NOT do their job....they should know the rules associated with the Schnegen Visa as this is a common Visa used for international travellers. Thus, this newlywed couple is out money because of American's mistakes and American does not care.

Often1

Unfortunately, you have not provided complete information, so nobody here can do much more than speculate based on assumptions. Here are the assumptions I have made:
1. Yiyang is a Chinese national residing or at least lawfully present in the US and traveling on a Chinese passport.
2. She was traveling to Italy on a Schengen visa issued by France. Presumably a C visa.
3. After some period of time in Italy, she planned to travel onward to France but her ticket to Italy did not show the onward travel to France (did she have an onward ticket to France on any form of transport such as an airline or train and did she have that for AA)?

If this is correct, here is what IATA's database, TIMATIC, says for the C visa:

The C visa must be valid for the Schengen Member State being visited. The field 'valid for' in the C visa specifies which Schengen Member States the C visa is valid for.

Can you verify that this is all correct? What countries did the Schengen C visa ---- if it was a C visa ---- provide?

khibner

I have verified the following information.....It is a C visa. She is a Chinese citizen (working on getting US citizenship) lawfully residing in the United States. They were travelling to Italy first, then staying in France the longest. Prior to booking their tickets, she visited both the French and Italian Embassies. The Schnegen Visa can either be issued in the country of entry or the country that you are visiting the longest. Both embassies told her to have her visa issued from France as that is where she would be the longest.

chgoeditor

I am moving this to the American Airlines forum.

chgoeditor
co-moderator, Info Desk

Often1

Please see the text in red in #2 which contains the language from IATA's TIMATIC database. That is what the AA agent as well as an agent for any IATA carrier in the world would see if they input this passenger's information as you have now confirmed.

You did not answer the question as to whether the C visa issued to to the passenger specified both Italy and France.or whether she provided the confirmations for her onward travel to France. If all the check-in agent saw was a C-Visa for France and the passenger had a ticket to Italy, hard to say that the agent did not follow what was in front of them.

Without full information as above it's still all just speculation and doesn't matter what somebody at an Embassy told her.

JDiver

Regardless of what the Embassies’ staff stated to you, as Often1 relates the airlines use IATA TIMATIC for their decisions; airline personnel who do not follow and enforce these rules can get into trouble, as the airline may be required to fly the passenger back to their origin at their expense on the next flight and be subject to a substantial fine.

It would at least seem both Schengen states, France and Italy, should have been listed.

I’m pretty certain you won’t get reimbursed for missed accommodations and those other fees unrelated to flying AA, though you might get them reimbursed by the Travel Insurance that you say was purchased. AA isn’t going to pay for the United miles that we’re used, either.

As to the other amount AA charged, I’d recommend a letter to the Executive Offices with supporting information, submitted by Fedex. But AA may still decline to pay anything, given the couple was intent on flying to Italy but only France was listed in the “valid for” field in the letter of the visa. It appears Italy could have theoretically denied entry without being specifically mentioned, and the airline’s agents acted upon that premise.

Or just file the claim with your Travel Insurance provider.

Definitely use TIMATIC to check these things out in the future, or pay a
Professional visa service like TDS. See here*: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...aspx?i=TIMATIC.

This is what it says under these circumstances:

“France - Destination Visa

The passenger is arriving on a domestic or common border area flight and no immigration regulations apply for this segment. See Entry Requirements for previous segment.


Italy - Transit Passport

Passport required.

Document validity rules:

Passports and other documents accepted for entry must be valid for a minimum of 3 months beyond the period of intended stay.

Important:

Passports and/or passport replacing documents issued more than 10 years prior to date of travel are not accepted.

:
Italy - Transit Visa (even if merely connecting)

Visa required.

The following are exempt from holding a visa:

Passengers with a Hong Kong (SAR China) passport for a maximum stay of 90 days.

The maximum stay is granted within 180 days.

Passengers with a Macao (SAR China) passport for a maximum stay of 90 days.

The maximum stay is granted within 180 days.

Important:

The C visa must be valid for the Schengen Member State(s) being visited. The field 'valid for' in the C visa specifies which Schengen Member States the C visa is valid for.

I’m not a visa professional; under these circumstances, it’s not a bad idea to consult one.

CrazyJ82

The Schengen visas I've seen typically say only "Schengen States" (or the equivalent in the language of the issuing country) in the "valid for" line. Also, applying at the Italian embassy wouldn't have helped: They would not issue the visa for the trip since it sounds like the itinerary they saw suggested France should issue the visa, and they wouldn't issue a second visa after France already had issued one.

if the visa does say Schengen States in the for line, the real problem here is probably that the AA agent goofed in thinking timatic meant it had to be issued by Italy and didn't realize Italy is included in "Schengen states".

Basically, the visa was issued after OP consulted both embassies and timatic generally won't impose an impossible condition, which an italy-issued visa would have been in this case. That leaves AA error.

garykung

This is how I see it.

When dealing with visa issue, usually the traveler bears all liabilities. What make this tricky is when UA was able to board the party while AA could not, AA must have done something wrong, especially when the traveler has all papers in order (FWIW - a Chinese (Mainland) citizen virtually needs a visa to go everywhere in the world. So it is unlikely for a Chinese (Mainland) citizen to make mistakes on visa as he/she need to apply for visa in almost all circumstances).

On the other hand, I can fully anticipate that AA will deny all liabilities and maintain it was correct.

Bottom line - it is time for the lawyers and courts.

Yoshi212

From what I am seeing UA flew them to Paris which the Visa was appropriately issued for and then on to Italy which is why they're seeking reimbursement for the Paris to Italy flights too.

Often1

I disagree.

UA boarded the passenger because she presented a C-visa for France on a flight to France. AA denied boarding on the same visa but for a flight to Italy.

The language in TIMATIC is clear. Both carriers followed the TIMATIC instructions.

garykung

You can agree/disagree whatever you want.

To me, OP has made up the mind about AA's responsibility. Allow me to say - regardless what we can agree/disagree with OP's issue, the bottom line is AA will not do anything similar because OP claims AA was wrong. There is nothing for us, as spectators, can do or advise.

That's why I said lawyers and courts.

Dave Noble

Unless AA did make an error - and there is nothing to indicate that it id, then the only reason to speak to a lawyer would be to throw more money after it

Whether the person had a visa valid for both countries is something that the passengers should be easily able to check - this is what it is time for

grrizzli

Schengen visas are issued for travel to "Schengen States" -- ALL of them -- and NOT to a specific country that issued the visa. The OP said that their daughter-in-law received a valid Schengen visa from a French consulate. That visa entitles its holder to travel to ANY country in the Schengen zone. Those who claim otherwise don't know what they are talking about. Based on what we heard from the OP, American Airlines was completely in the wrong -- applying for a Schengen visa at an Italian consulate when you already have a valid Schengen visa issued by a French consulate is unnecessary and perhaps not even possible -- because it makes no sense.

I traveled many times to European countries with Schengen visas issued by the consulates of other Schengen zone countries. Never had any problem. I guess I was just lucky that my passport check wasn't done by a clueless AA agent.

JDiver

Are you a Chinese citizen? Because as stated previously TIMATIC clearly states , for citizens of mainland China “The C visa must be valid for the Schengen Member State being visited. The field 'valid for' in the C visa specifies which Schengen Member States the C visa is valid for..

grrizzli

I'm not a Chinese citizen. However, The field "valid for" in the C visa typically says "Schengen States" in the language of the consulate that issued the visa. The country that issued a Schengen visa is not prominently mentioned on the visa stamp -- there's just an abbreviation. Italy is a Scengen state, thus the visa is valid for Italy. I haven't seen the visa stamp in the passport of OP's daughter-in-law, but it doesn't sound like that she had any atypical visa.