kb9522

Yes. If you can't afford a cut of a few hundred dollars once on rare occasions, that's a decision you need to make. But in the context of pilots earning $120,000-$200,000 a year, I can't imagine how it could possibly be an issue.

You continue to imply that I would tolerate malicious intent even though I have repeatedly said I don't nor do I expect others to. There was no malicious intent in the case of AA. An unfortunate issue occurred, and rather than pilots (or more specifically the union) using that to extort money from the airline, I'm suggesting the pilots should show some semblance of work ethic and step up to help resolve the situation. Instead the optics of this makes it seem like the first thought was "how can I stick it to the people who put food on my table"...

Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

diver858

George Santayana is credited with the saying: Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.
AAL has struggled with labor issues going back to the Crandall days. He and his successors avoided confrontation, simply retired, kicking the can down the road rather than attempting to resolve them. Horton made a valiant effort, attempting to avoid Chapter 11, but labor sided with Parker, putting us all in the current dysfunctional mess.
Going back a bit further, it is the New Testament that provided the idiom you reap what you sow.
From this perspective, help me understand why we - loyal, long-term AA customers - should be sympathetic to pilots in this situation?

kb9522

As long as free speech is a thing and I'm certainly allowed to voice this opinion. I'm sorry you don't like it or agree with it... The good thing is you don't have to.

You make it sound like a change fee would incur some insurmountable debt. To me, this is an insignificant cost to pay. And one that should be paid to help your coworkers, and like it or not that's what these suits are to pilots, out of a tough spot.

QtownDave

I’m pretty sure that in order to have an answer a question is usually asked first.

ROCAT

The executives are multi millionaires and are the ones who will be being helped out of a tough spot, why not have them personally pay for any fees?

iaflyer

You reap what you sow is exactly correct. I didn't say the customers should be sympathetic to the pilots. What I was implying is that if the company took better care of the employees, this would of been a non-issue.

Do you think if this happened at Delta or Southwest this would be a problem? A lot less likely because the company tries to take care of the employees and in turn, the employees want to help the customers and in turn the company.

"You reap what you sow" - As you said, AA management has struggled with labor issue, has apparently sown distrust and it's coming back to haunt them.

cmd320

That wasn't questioning your ability to voice your opinion. That was more of a question of how you could possibly feel informed enough to do so rationally. Which clearly isn't the case so I suppose my question has been answered.

So what? Even if it was $1, it isn't the pilot's problem to pay it. It's the company which screwed up in a pretty unimaginable way.

kb9522

You think average and median salaries for various careers at various companies is not information readily available on the internet?

Sure. But those are the sacrifices you make to support your coworkers.

kb9522

I'm getting the sense that everyone wants to turn this into a contractual obligation... I don't understand this. Do people really hate their jobs (or their employer) so much that they're not willing to make sacrifices simply to ensure the success of their company? If so, why the heck wouldn't you find a different job?

I expect this me,me,me,me nonsense from millennials, sure... I never expected this mentality to be so widespread. It boggles my mind.

diver858

Are you kidding? WN pilots were working almost 4 YEARS without a contract http://www.businessinsider.com/south...-boeing-2016-5, lots of hostility toward management. You neglected to mention United, which has THE worst labor relations in the industry.

Allow me to try another old saying - this one attributed to Benjamin Franklin: He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas. Pilots are responsible for Parker's seat in the executive suite; had they worked it out with Horton, things would be MUCH different - in a positive way - for both labor and customers.

Sykes

Many pilots love their jobs, but despise their management (and for very good reason). Seniority rules make it tremendously impractical to move between airlines if they are not happy with their current management because they'd start again at the most junior position on the chart. While most of them are also much more sympathetic to impact on customers, I wouldn't blame them if they use this incident as leverage to get some concessions.

kb9522

Did I read that right? The union made SWA enumerate every single variant of aircraft their pilots could fly in the contract and if some new acquisition years later was added to the fleet SWA wouldn't be allowed to tell pilots to fly it? Even if the new aircraft was better for customers and the company? This must be a new height in frivolousness... and people keep saying unions aren't the problem.

kb9522

So then why choose this career path? If they truly love flying and aren't in it just for the money, they could become instructors or fly private/chartered aircraft (owner/operator type deal)... If it's just the money, there are other jobs. And eventually the labor shortage for commercial pilots would cause "management" to do some reevaluation.

Sykes

It's one of the only career paths where you can fly for good money (enough to support a family), and at the very top of the seniority ladder it also provides a relatively predictable schedule with plenty of time off.

Flight instruction pays peanuts (mostly because it's full of airline-track CFIs teaching primarily to build their own flight time for very little pay), and iirc most Part 135 pilots make less than half of what a typical AA first officer makes.

I'm not an airline pilot, but generally what I've been told is that it's good work and really quite enjoyable once you make it to a major airline. Having said that, given the state of labor relations in the US airline industry, it wouldn't be surprising if they aren't willing to do the company any favors, especially when the flaw that created the problem is with a system that the pilots have apparently been actively trying to convince the company to replace for some time now.

kb9522

Doesn't sound like a very appealing career path to me, but to each their own.

Good insight though. Thanks for that.

From my perspective, these types of situations and the one with WN above certainly doesn't generate any good will with management when an opportunity presents itself to effect change. In fact, it probably does the opposite and creates a downward spiral. Why wouldn't AA remember the time the union tried to extort them over a technical issue and use it as an excuse to strike back later on when making a choice that could potentially improve pilot morale?